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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
8200 block of Skyline (from Shepherd Canyon south)......

Forgot to include racing-type motorcycles in my last post about types of drivers I am concerned about when I listed (1.) young drivers in pickup trucks and ( 2.) sedans with cell phone talkers..........
Now when I think about it, many of my closest calls in terms of "inches of separation" are indeed with those amateurs on racing motorcycles who just know how good they are so they can cut within 12 inches of you without danger. Knowing you'll NEVER swerve or anything.
Anyway, here is a sad story about a cyclist who was hit by a motorcyclist who cut over to the other side of the road.
A almost impossible to protect yourself against event assuming you weren't riding the middle line of the road.
I'm not sure I know that cyclist but I've almost certainly passed him dozens of times on the various local roads. Probably one of those familiar people who you recognize but have never talked to.
Sorry for him and his family.
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Article Last Updated: 08/01/2006 07:26:35 AM PDT

Bike rider hit by motorcycle dies
Cause of accident still under investigation
By Susan McDonough, STAFF WRITER


Ed Weiss
OAKLAND — A bicycle rider, who was struck by a motorcyclist Saturday (29th) afternoon near his home in the Oakland hills, has died, police and family members said Monday.

Edward Weiss, 50, was riding eastbound (I assume towards Skyline Gate parking area) on the 8200 block of Skyline Boulevard about 3:45 p.m. when, for reasons still unknown, a motorcyclist traveling in the opposite direction crossed the double yellow line and hit him, said Oakland police Officer Wing Wong. Weiss died early Sunday from his injuries.

His family said Weiss was an avid cyclist who owned a large collection of bikes he enjoyed both maintaining and riding.

Wong said police are investigating the accident and no charges have been filed against the motorcyclist, whose name was not released.

Wong said the man was driving a Kawasaki racing bike and might (duh!) have been speeding. Police are talking to witnesses — including another motorcyclist riding with the driver — to determine the accident's cause.

Weiss' brother, Rick Schiller, said

his sibling was a tree trimmer and known among his colleagues to take on tough jobs, despite being partially deaf from a tree-trimming accident.

"To say that Ed danced to a different drummer would be an understatement," Schiller said. "Ed probably built the drum and did a meticulous job of construction. His wit, charm, his sweet nature will be missed by all who knew him."

Weiss graduated from Piedmont High School in 1973. In addition to brother Rick, he is survived by sisters Dina and Jasmine; another brother, Mike; and many nieces and nephews.
 

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:mad5: :mad5: :mad5: The things I'd like to do to irresponsible motorcyclist on Skyline/ Grizzly Peak.

A co worker was hit by a motorcyclist a few weeks ago on Grizzly Peak Rd... travelling the same direction! Of course the guy just kept going as did his buddy on another motorcycle. Of course, Oakland PD, Berkeley PD, and Alameda Co. Sheriff all seem to think that there is no problem... When my friend tried to report his incident, he was given the run-around... none of the departments wanted to deal with it. I wonder if the fact that someone was killed will change anything. I'm doubtful.

This is tragic! my condolances to Ed's family and freinds. I will think of him on my ride tonight.
 

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By no means am I defending the motorcycle rider but that is a crazy, screwed up intersection on the 8200 block. Four roads come into that block at odd angles. The signs, striping, and controls for that intersection are totally inadequate and confusing. I frequently run into people who are sitting on that block puzzled at which way to go. My first 10 times through there I was like WTF.

IMO, motorcycles are like jet skis in that they are idiot machines. I'm not saying all who ride these machines are idiots, but they do appeal to idiots. Their reality is that they put way too much power into peoples hands before they are capable of understanding, controlling, or appreciating it. A windsurfer can go fast but it takes many, many hours to get to the point where this is realized. During these hours one learns through exposure about tides, currents, weather changes, water dangers, etc. When a windsurfer has a problem they can usually take care of themselves, on a jet ski most people completely depend on outside help because they don't understand how to save themselves or the dynamics around them. Likewise, road bikes have the potential to go fast, but it takes far more skill and understanding to make this happen in comparison with a motorcycle.

I would almost bet that in this situation the motorcycle rider was a relative novice and confused by the intersection. The motorcycle tipped the equation so that his sense couldn't keep up with his speed, and as a result someone died.

The have personally had 6 people I knew very well die on motorcycles. I am also very outspoken about how dangerous I think motorcycles are. I told two friends how much I worry about them riding within one week of each sustaining life altering injuries.

One guy I knew who raced motorcycles who said something I'll always remember: 'At no point have I been as scared on the race track as I am every second on the street; this includes during a crash. On a track you are going to keep sliding until you come to a stop and you know that. On the street you are going to slide into a curb, pole, person, tree, or car; all of which will kill you if you are going fast enough.'
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Another bit of detail left out of the Oakland Tribune article

:mad5: :mad5: :mad5: The things I'd like to do to irresponsible motorcyclist on Skyline/ Grizzly Peak.

This is tragic! my condolances to Ed's family and freinds. I will think of him on my ride tonight.
Just read this bit of information from a family friend, posted elsewhere on the net, regarding how this accident took place.....being that I was wondering how a motorcyclist could get so far over onto the other side of the road to hit the cyclist.

Poster's name and header info deleted for privacy reasons

Date: Sun, Jul 30 2006 10:57 am (day after accident)

My old guitar player's brother was riding his road bike yesterday in the
Oakland Hills on Skyline Blvd., a beautiful road where you can see the
complete San Francisco Bay. He was riding on his side of the street near the
right curb when a motorcyclists headed the other way passed a car going way
too fast, overtook a curve in the road and plowed right into Ed. This guy
was avid rider who rides 8-10,000 miles a year. He died last night.

I've ridden this stretch of road hundreds of times as it is part of commute
route from work. I've had many near misses from vehicles that either don't
know or care about us. I always ride defensively but sometimes that isn't
even enough.

That being said, I'm going for a ride now and I'm gonna think of Ed. He died
loving what he was doing. R.I.P Ed Weiss.

Be careful out there you guys!


I'm still not exactly clear on what happened, except that passing another vehicle was involved and probably speed. Whether just passing the car put him on the other side of the road, OR the combination of passing the car plus the extra speed just made him unable to navigate the turn any tighter to his proper lane.

I'd say the average speed for a motorcyclist on Skyline, Redwood Rd, and Pinehurst is about 50 mph and about 60 mph average on straight sections. Of course daily, we're passed by superbikes going 70+. Fastest I've seen is over 100 mph along Redwood Rd near the Castro Valley golf course, but at least that section is straight and wide with a good rideable shoulder.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Don't think the accident took place in the intersection?

Boardmill said:
By no means am I defending the motorcycle rider but that is a crazy, screwed up intersection on the 8200 block. Four roads come into that block at odd angles. The signs, striping, and controls for that intersection are totally inadequate and confusing. I frequently run into people who are sitting on that block puzzled at which way to go. My first 10 times through there I was like WTF.
'
I agree, that is a very dangerous intersection. I've seen many near misses there as cars turn in front of cyclists......

However, unless you have more information than I do, I have no reason to believe that the accident took place at the intersection itself.
I was thinking it more likely took place on one of the 3 or 4 turns between the intersection and the Skyline Gate parking/staging area 1/3 to 1/2 mile south/east.
I'm riding there today and will see if anyone knows.
The cyclist was heading south/east on Skyline from Pinehurst along Skyline.
 

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Boardmill said:
By no means am I defending the motorcycle rider but that is a crazy, screwed up intersection on the 8200 block. Four roads come into that block at odd angles. The signs, striping, and controls for that intersection are totally inadequate and confusing. I frequently run into people who are sitting on that block puzzled at which way to go. My first 10 times through there I was like WTF.

IMO, motorcycles are like jet skis in that they are idiot machines. I'm not saying all who ride these machines are idiots, but they do appeal to idiots. Their reality is that they put way too much power into peoples hands before they are capable of understanding, controlling, or appreciating it. A windsurfer can go fast but it takes many, many hours to get to the point where this is realized. During these hours one learns through exposure about tides, currents, weather changes, water dangers, etc. When a windsurfer has a problem they can usually take care of themselves, on a jet ski most people completely depend on outside help because they don't understand how to save themselves or the dynamics around them. Likewise, road bikes have the potential to go fast, but it takes far more skill and understanding to make this happen in comparison with a motorcycle.

I would almost bet that in this situation the motorcycle rider was a relative novice and confused by the intersection. The motorcycle tipped the equation so that his sense couldn't keep up with his speed, and as a result someone died.

The have personally had 6 people I knew very well die on motorcycles. I am also very outspoken about how dangerous I think motorcycles are. I told two friends how much I worry about them riding within one week of each sustaining life altering injuries.

One guy I knew who raced motorcycles who said something I'll always remember: 'At no point have I been as scared on the race track as I am every second on the street; this includes during a crash. On a track you are going to keep sliding until you come to a stop and you know that. On the street you are going to slide into a curb, pole, person, tree, or car; all of which will kill you if you are going fast enough.'
I have two freinds and one aquaintance who have traded in their street bikes for track bikes. I have owned a number of motorcycles and may again soon. It will probably be a dual sport or something that doesn't go very fast. Their are responsible motorcyclist out there, but like bad drivers, the bad riders far outweigh the good by their actions and consequences.
 

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Is it just me...

...or have there been alot of these incidents happening lately? Not necessarily motorcyclyes but it seems everytime I open up RBR I'm reading about another cyclist killed by a motor vehicle of some sort.

This is very very sad and my heart goes out to his family.

I love riding my road bike but I'm feeling more and more like it's just too risky. I don't have the time to mountain bike as much as I'd like anymore, so road biking is a great way for me to keep in shape. I'd hate to stop doing something I love because of fear but I guess we all have to ask ourselves if the risk is worth it. Sometimes this is a tough decision for me. :mad2:
 

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Squizzle said:
...or have there been alot of these incidents happening lately? Not necessarily motorcyclyes but it seems everytime I open up RBR I'm reading about another cyclist killed by a motor vehicle of some sort.

This is very very sad and my heart goes out to his family.

I love riding my road bike but I'm feeling more and more like it's just too risky. I don't have the time to mountain bike as much as I'd like anymore, so road biking is a great way for me to keep in shape. I'd hate to stop doing something I love because of fear but I guess we all have to ask ourselves if the risk is worth it. Sometimes this is a tough decision for me. :mad2:

I hear ya... It's sad to think that giving in to the somewhat (or blatant in some cases) anti-cycling attitude that most of us face daily is the safest option. If I were married with children, I'd seriously consider selling the road bike.
 

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My girlfriend and I rode through that section Sunday on our way to do Pinehurst/Redwood and didn't realize that someone died there the day before.

The best thing we as cyclists can do is be even more aware of our surroundings...especially around blind curves. Keep your ears tuned to motorcycle/vehicle noises coming behind and in front of you. And DON'T listen your IPOD or whatever while riding. You're asking for trouble if you do. If there's anything else anyone wants to add, feel free to mention it here about safety.

Cheers
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
OK, rode by the accident location a hour ago.

Just got back from my ride. Rode to the top of Pinehurst at Skyline.
Then, after resting a bit, turned left onto Skyline.
You take a slight gradual left and the right away there is a sharper right hand turn in the road.
Just across the street from the house up above the road that just put on new red siding.
You will see orange paint on the road marking the spot. I'm guessing the police put it there during their accident investigation to highlight the marks on the road which otherwise might not show up as well in photos on the black asphalt.
One troubling circle has "blood" painted next to it and across the road is a mirror (still on the road flattened) with mirror marked next to the circle painted around it.
Other orange paint markings on also on the road.

Later I went a 100 feet or so back up the road and watched other riders take that curve. Its a right hand curve with the road banking to the right, such that, you naturally tend to take it towards the right hand side of the road. I saw about a dozen cyclists go around it and none of them were even in the left hand half of their own lane. Most were in the right hand third of the lane right next to the edge which is bushes etc.
Thus from that observation and from the markings on the road in paint, I'd say that the bike rider was far, very far to the right, as he took the turn. Doing all he could to be safe around that turn.
I will have to take more runs from the motorcyclist direction but it appears he'd have to be crazy to try to pass at that point across, what I think is a double yellow line.

Having said that, (and try to visualize this) after I had gone past that accident point, I turned around and headed back. As I approached the same exact turn from the direction that the motorcyle was traveling, suddenly, on that exact turn, came two motorcyclists passsing a car, wide, on the turn, well over the same double yellow line.
A cyclists.....even me.........heading towards Pinehurst would have been wiped out if riding in the middle of the lane and if unseen by the motorcyclist. Perhaps, if wearing some clothing in green or beige, in that spit second, the motorcyclist doesn't see you.

EXACTLY the same spot. Except the direction of the motorcyclist was the reverse of the Saturday accident. SAME DARN SPOT, right when I'm there observing the situation..
Couldn't believe it. I put out my arm and pointed right at his head as he approched me another 100 feet down the road, like saying what a idiot you are, you moron. Oh well.

So, its doubtful the cyclist on Saturday, taking that turn as others seem to naturally do, could have done anything to avoid the situation. He was just in the wrong place when the idiot motorcyclist attempts to pass the car, over a double line, on a mostly blind curve.
Wait til you see it and you'll see what I mean. The paint is there and will no doubt remain for some weeks or even months.

Troubling to realize there are points in the road, where no right minded driver would pass, if only out of self preservation, and yet thats exactly what the motorcylist had to have done to hit the cyclist.
That level of obvious endangerment and disregard for human life certainly deserves some punishment on the criminal level even if alcohol is not involved.
Anyone know what the law says about that kind of behavior?
I mean, this foolish act was nearly on par with driving up a off-ramp onto the freeway into traffic going in the opposite direction.
At some point its no longer just a traffic mistake but a criminal assault.
Seems like jail time for such foolishness would be appropriate, even if only 6 months or such.
Manslaughter or some other penalty. I'd say a couple years in the slammer would be about right. The guy probably doesn't carry enough (if any) insurance to pay for even a pittance of what damage he has caused.

Wait til you see the site and you'll know what a moron the motorcyclist was...:mad:
 

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@Bokchoy: you prolly saw me today (w/ tieni duro jersey riding with another person w/ red/white montano velo/oakland jersey).... this scares me... that intersection is dangerous (skyline-pinehurst-shepards canyon) ive seen cars stop in the middle of the intersection confused... sometimes after i rest after pinehurst ive seen a lot of close calls w/ cars and bikers.

hm... i didnt think skyline was that dangerous until now, ive had a lot of close calls w/ motorcycles on grizzley peak though, i always worry about motorcycles going to fast into the turn and skidding out and running into me... this makes me want to throw a watter bottle at them or something...."cars are coffins" and so are motorcycles
 

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Bokchoy said:
Just got back from my ride. Rode to the top of Pinehurst at Skyline.
Then, after resting a bit, turned left onto Skyline.
You take a slight gradual left and the right away there is a sharper right hand turn in the road.
Just across the street from the house up above the road that just put on new red siding.
You will see orange paint on the road marking the spot. I'm guessing the police put it there during their accident investigation to highlight the marks on the road which otherwise might not show up as well in photos on the black asphalt.
One troubling circle has "blood" painted next to it and across the road is a mirror (still on the road flattened) with mirror marked next to the circle painted around it.
Other orange paint markings on also on the road.

Later I went a 100 feet or so back up the road and watched other riders take that curve. Its a right hand curve with the road banking to the right, such that, you naturally tend to take it towards the right hand side of the road. I saw about a dozen cyclists go around it and none of them were even in the left hand half of their own lane. Most were in the right hand third of the lane right next to the edge which is bushes etc.
Thus from that observation and from the markings on the road in paint, I'd say that the bike rider was far, very far to the right, as he took the turn. Doing all he could to be safe around that turn.
I will have to take more runs from the motorcyclist direction but it appears he'd have to be crazy to try to pass at that point across, what I think is a double yellow line.

Having said that, (and try to visualize this) after I had gone past that accident point, I turned around and headed back. As I approached the same exact turn from the direction that the motorcyle was traveling, suddenly, on that exact turn, came two motorcyclists passsing a car, wide, on the turn, well over the same double yellow line.
A cyclists.....even me.........heading towards Pinehurst would have been wiped out if riding in the middle of the lane and if unseen by the motorcyclist. Perhaps, if wearing some clothing in green or beige, in that spit second, the motorcyclist doesn't see you.

EXACTLY the same spot. Except the direction of the motorcyclist was the reverse of the Saturday accident. SAME DARN SPOT, right when I'm there observing the situation..
Couldn't believe it. I put out my arm and pointed right at his head as he approched me another 100 feet down the road, like saying what a idiot you are, you moron. Oh well.

So, its doubtful the cyclist on Saturday, taking that turn as others seem to naturally do, could have done anything to avoid the situation. He was just in the wrong place when the idiot motorcyclist attempts to pass the car, over a double line, on a mostly blind curve.
Wait til you see it and you'll see what I mean. The paint is there and will no doubt remain for some weeks or even months.

Troubling to realize there are points in the road, where no right minded driver would pass, if only out of self preservation, and yet thats exactly what the motorcylist had to have done to hit the cyclist.
That level of obvious endangerment and disregard for human life certainly deserves some punishment on the criminal level even if alcohol is not involved.
Anyone know what the law says about that kind of behavior?
I mean, this foolish act was nearly on par with driving up a off-ramp onto the freeway into traffic going in the opposite direction.
At some point its no longer just a traffic mistake but a criminal assault.
Seems like jail time for such foolishness would be appropriate, even if only 6 months or such.
Manslaughter or some other penalty. I'd say a couple years in the slammer would be about right. The guy probably doesn't carry enough (if any) insurance to pay for even a pittance of what damage he has caused.

Wait til you see the site and you'll know what a moron the motorcyclist was...:mad:
Yeah, last night I saw the ominus orange paint and the first squad car (crime unit) I have ever seen in the Berkeley/ Oakland Hills.
I involuntarily glared at every motorcyclist going faster than I thought they should... funny how the mind works.

I think maybe i saw mytorelli up there too... not certain though.
There were a lot of cyclist out last night... someone mentioned it might be a T.I.T. thing
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Not anywhere near the intersection......down the road

wipeout said:
Forget that intersection and its danger. The accident is South of there
Imagine you are the bike rider.
Begin at that intersection and head South.
Look at that map you linked us to.
As you leave the intersection headed South you first take a mild left turn.
Right after that you take a banked hard right turn of about 95+ degrees.
Just at or a few feet prior to the apex of that turn the cyclist got hit.
In other words, the motorcyclist, passing another car at speed dipped down into that banked, left hand turn (for him), crossed the double yellow line....went way over into the South bound lane and wacked the cyclist.
The cyclists if he was taking the turn like 98% of people do was hugging his right hand edge of his own lane. Its the natural thing to do there. Almost no one on bikes making that turn even goes into the left half (50%) of their own lane.

Important to note, is that the motorcyclist making that left turn while passing the car, had a very poor or totally obstructed view of the approaching cyclist because the inside corner of that turn has trees and bushes preventing a clear view.

Unless there is some other facts, that are not apparent, then the motorcyclist was in the area of "gross negligence"....beyond normal negilgence.....and hence, should be prosecuted for vehicular manslaughter.
1. crossing a double yellow line
2. crossing into the other lane on a nearly blind curve
3. passing another vehicle at excessive speed
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 · (Edited)
Another view of the same turn

Bokchoy said:
Forget that intersection and its danger. The accident is South of there
Look at this view (but zoom it in one more step and then hit satellite to remove the yellow street marker for a perfect view of the exact location without obstruction)

http://www.zillow.com/search/Search...+skyline&citystatezip=oakland,+ca&mode=search

Just north of that 8235 Skyline house you see.
Motorcycle heading north, passing a car while making a sharp left...
Cyclist heading south
 

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I see...yes, I know that curve. It's especially dangerous there!

Thanks for that detailed description of the accident scene Bokchoy. We all know that any of those blind curves along the Oakland hills are potentially dangerous so it's important that cyclists be very cautious when entering such a section of road.
 

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To date the Alameda County District Attorney has taken no action on this case against the person driving the motorcycle. Ed Weiss' brother is going to meet with the District Attorney at the end of the week. If you want to express your opinion before then the contact information for the District Attorney and Deputy District Attorney is listed on the web site, click on the link for Ed Weiss on the left hand side and then scroll down.

http://www.businessimagegroup.com/skyline/traffic.html
 
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