Road Bike, Cycling Forums banner
1 - 16 of 16 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,055 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
If you look at the current contenders (at least on paper), they are all from outside of "old" Europe (western Europe).

Landis, Leipheimer, Julich and Hincapie (USA)
Evans, Rogers (Australia)
Popovych, Gonchar (Ukraine)
Menchov, Karpets (Russia)

The best picks from the western europe come from
Savoldelli, Cunego, Simoni (Italy)
Kloden (Germany)
Moreau (France)
Azevedo (Portugal)

But I have to say, those are more like "outside" picks - the most compelling come from the first list. Of course, there might be a dark horse here and there...

I am somewhat skeptical of all-american podium (but it's a real possibility!), but how about a podium that doesn't contain traditional "old" Europe countries?

If podium contains no western europeans, will it be the first?
 

·
gastarbeiter
Joined
·
1,524 Posts
Hey Rummy,

I've got some news for you, there is no such thing as 'old Europe', or 'new Europe', so please save those mistaken misnomers for the PO forum.

Thanks
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,055 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
botto said:
Hey Rummy,

I've got some news for you, there is no such thing as 'old Europe', or 'new Europe', so please save those mistaken misnomers for the PO forum.

Thanks
dear botto,

That term dates back to 19th century, if you think Rummy "invented" the expression, I suggest you get some historic perspective.

Regardless, if it offends you so much, replace "old Europe" with "western Europe". We traditionally don't think of countries like Poland, Romania, Ukraine, baltic states as europe, which is why some people refer to it as "new Europe" - as in "new additions to European Union". Eastern Russia is geographically part of Europe as well (up to Ural mountains).

And by the way, I am a european...
 

·
Call me a Fred
Joined
·
17,025 Posts
Old Europe did do pretty good in the World Cup!
 

·
gastarbeiter
Joined
·
1,524 Posts
That's ironic, considering that IMO the Baltic States are more 'European' than, for example, the UK is.

It's still a BS way to label a region, whether it's a 19th century term (do you have a reference btw?) or not.

BTW I live in Europe. :ciappa:

55x11 said:
dear bott,

That term dates back to 19th century, if you think Rummy "invented" the expression, I suggest you get some historic perspective.

Regardless, if it offends you so much, replace "old Europe" with "western Europe". We traditionally don't think of countries like Poland, Romania, Ukraine, baltic states as europe, which is why some people refer to it as "new Europe" - as in "new additions to European Union". Eastern Russia is geographically part of Europe as well (up to Ural mountains).

And by the way, I am a european...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,055 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
botto said:
That's ironic, considering that IMO the Baltic States are more 'European' than, for example, the UK is.

It's still a BS way to label a region, whether it's a 19th century term (do you have a reference btw?) or not.

BTW I live in Europe. :ciappa:
However you want to define it - the Western European countries that traditionally dominated the Tour and cycling in general, such as Spain, Italy, France, Germany, Belgium, Switzerland, etc.

Then you have "newcomers" - aussies, americans, eastern europeans, south americas, etc.

No offense or political statement intended/implied, so no need to be so sensitive.

As to reference - "altes Europa" was used prior to WWI by german philosophers like Karl Marx... It is often referred to aging population in Europe too.
 

·
gastarbeiter
Joined
·
1,524 Posts
fair enough, apart from one small point: the germans never really 'dominated the tour'. remember, ol' jan is their one and only TdF winner.

55x11 said:
However you want to define it - the Western European countries that traditionally dominated the Tour and cycling in general, such as Spain, Italy, France, Germany, Belgium, Switzerland, etc.

Then you have "newcomers" - aussies, americans, eastern europeans, south americas, etc.

No offense or political statement intended/implied, so no need to be so sensitive.

As to reference - "altes Europa" was used prior to WWI by german philosophers like Karl Marx... It is often referred to aging population in Europe too.
 

·
Self-Banned
Joined
·
16,907 Posts
55x11 said:
However you want to define it - the Western European countries that traditionally dominated the Tour and cycling in general, such as Spain, Italy, France, Germany, Belgium, Switzerland, etc.

Then you have "newcomers" - aussies, americans, eastern europeans, south americas, etc.

No offense or political statement intended/implied, so no need to be so sensitive.

As to reference - "altes Europa" was used prior to WWI by german philosophers like Karl Marx... It is often referred to aging population in Europe too.

Aussies, North Americans, British, Irish, Eastern Europeans and South Americas have been top players for over 20 years now.

P.S. Simpson, Anderson, Boyer, LeMond, Kelly, Alcala, Para, Roche, Hampsten, Berzin, Tonkov, Ekimov, Tchmil, Julich, Yates, Boardman and Herrera are some names from the 1960's, 70's, 80's and 90's that come to mind quickly.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,055 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
rocco said:
Aussies, North Americans, British, Irish, Eastern Europeans and South Americas have been top players for over 20 years now.

P.S. Simpson, Anderson, Boyer, LeMond, Kelly, Alcala, Para, Roche, Hampsten, Berzin, Tonkov, Ekimov, Tchmil, Julich, Yates, Boardman and Herrera are some names from the 1960's, 70's, 80's and 90's that come to mind quickly.
rocco - thanks for the helpful insight! None of us heard any of those names! You must be real TdF buff (sarcasm) :rolleyes:

Back to my point, I believe this may be the first year with no spanish, italian, german, french, swiss, danish, french etc. riders on the podium.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,055 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
botto said:
fair enough, apart from one small point: the germans never really 'dominated the tour'. remember, ol' jan is their one and only TdF winner.
True, but between him and Kloden, German stood on the podium 8 out of the past 10 years - equalled only by US. So it would be strange to exclude them.

Let's put it differently -what are the chances that podium will be filled with english-speaking riders? In 1985 when Lemond was 2nd and Roche was 3rd, you could argue you had two english-speaking riders on podium - the first and only time that happened(?)
 

·
Self-Banned
Joined
·
16,907 Posts
Not just a Tour de France buff... but please tell us what you know wise one.

55x11 said:
rocco - thanks for the helpful insight! None of us heard any of those names! You must be real TdF buff (sarcasm) :rolleyes:

Back to my point, I believe this may be the first year with no spanish, italian, german, french, swiss, danish, french etc. riders on the podium.
Gee, why call them "newcomers" then?

No 1st, 2nd or 3rd on GC?
No points winner/green jersey?
No king of the mountian/polka dot jersey?
No best youg rider/white jersey?

So go ahead and tell us about all that you've done and seen in the world of cycling for the past 25 years... :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,055 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
rocco said:
Gee, why call them "newcomers" then?

No 1st, 2nd or 3rd on GC?
No points winner/green jersey?
No king of the mountian/polka dot jersey?
No best youg rider/white jersey?

So go ahead and tell us about all that you've done and seen in the world of cycling for the past 25 years... :)
(why are you so annoying?)

"Newcomers" in historical sense. Since 1903 till 1980ies, the race was primarily among Western European countries. Now things change to the point of possible domination from "outsiders". Please don't get into arguments over what "outsiders" mean. We all know you are biggest TdF expert. You even predicted Valverde wouldn't finish!

By the way, what is your prediction for TdF?
All I could find for you is
"1st: a guy on best dope
2nd: a guy on better dope
3rd: a guy on dope"

Is that your best "expert" prediction?
 

·
Self-Banned
Joined
·
16,907 Posts
55x11 said:
(why are you so annoying?)

"Newcomers" in historical sense. Since 1903 till 1980ies, the race was primarily among Western European countries. Now things change to the point of possible domination from "outsiders". Please don't get into arguments over what "outsiders" mean. We all know you are biggest TdF expert. You even predicted Valverde wouldn't finish!

By the way, what is your prediction for TdF?
All I could find for you is
"1st: a guy on best dope
2nd: a guy on better dope
3rd: a guy on dope"

Is that your best "expert" prediction?
That was part of it... dig a little deeper if you wish to find more.

P.S. Why do you find me to be so annoying and what does that say about you?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,808 Posts
55x11 said:
I am somewhat skeptical of all-american podium (but it's a real possibility!), but how about a podium that doesn't contain traditional "old" Europe countries?

If podium contains no western europeans, will it be the first?
From my look at the Cycling Hall of Fame, I think it will be the first all-non-WE podium. As far as I could tell, 1984 was the first time someone from outside Western Europe reached the podium, when Lemond did it, but I haven't found more than 2 non-WEs since then.

Personally, I don't view Savoldelli and Moreau as dark horse picks. I also think it's interesting how many more GT victories and podium finishes are on your WE/dark horse list compared to your EE list. I sorta hope you're right, however, and I'm looking forward to seeing it unfold.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,055 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
rocco said:
That was part of it... dig a little deeper if you wish to find more.

P.S. Why do you find me to be so annoying and what does that say about you?
You mean this:
Sorry.. I couldn't resist; I'm a bit of a nihilist.
1st: a guy on best dope
2nd: a guy on better dope
3rd: a guy on dope

Followed by:
"I WIN!!! I WIN!!! ...well at least according to just about everyone else's picks." ???!

Sorry, but it appears guys with the best dope were eliminated from Tour.

I think what annoys me (a little bit) is that most of your posts are about yourself and your amazing superior knowledge of the Tour and ability to "predict" things and following the Tour "all the way" since 1986. me-me-me-me-me...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,055 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
harlond said:
From my look at the Cycling Hall of Fame, I think it will be the first all-non-WE podium. As far as I could tell, 1984 was the first time someone from outside Western Europe reached the podium, when Lemond did it, but I haven't found more than 2 non-WEs since then.

Personally, I don't view Savoldelli and Moreau as dark horse picks. I also think it's interesting how many more GT victories and podium finishes are on your WE/dark horse list compared to your EE list. I sorta hope you're right, however, and I'm looking forward to seeing it unfold.
Definitely no more than 2 non-WE on podium. Only one with 2 english-speakers.

Part of it is that this Tour has been targeting time trials, and lately english-speakers dominated time trials. Maybe simply because they have to ride my themselves a lot more on flat roads, whereas in countries like Italy or Spain it's either a group activity, or you go to the mountains.

A more "regular" tour course would make a different list of contenders, perhaps with guys like Cunego having a real shot.

I think Moreau is on good form, but I doubt he will be able to put serious time into people on time trial. Savoldelli - he is kinda ok in both ITT and climbing, but nothing exceptional in either and just did Giro where he was in some trouble. Maybe it was allergies after all, but I tend to think it was an excuse and he just couldn't deliver.
 
1 - 16 of 16 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top