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so here are the ringleaders
"According to the investigation documents, the criminal network comprised the following persons: Doctor Eufemiano Fuentes, Manolo Saiz (manager of former team Liberty Seguros), José Luis Merino (Chief of Haematology of Madrid hospital La Princesa), José Ignacio Labarta (assistant director of team Comunidad Valenciana) and Alberto León Herranz (former cyclist and supposedly a courier in the network). "

Now how do all these different riders from different national teams get tied into this single network? the Saiz connection is obvious enough but why would he allow other rivals dope against his own team? Pure profit motive? Has anyone heard how much these riders were paying?

Cecchini's (sp?) name is a corellation for some of these riders, but how do you think they most likely all got funelled into this Dr. Fuentes' office? Word of mouth? They took an ad out in the back pages of Cycle Sport?
 

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My guess:
Saiz cannot control who Fuentes is "treating". Fuentes will see anyone willing to pay his fee.
Sevilla is friends with a lot of Wurth spaniard riders. He might be a connection to T-Mobile and Jan.

Basso is a bit more mysterious. Considering CSC syringe story, this is just the tip of the iceberg with more to come. I cannot believe these guys used rather obvious "nicknames", rather some elaborate and well-protected numbering scheme. Maybe after they screwed up with Hamilton and gave him the wrong blood, they decided to "simplify" their blood-bag-naming scheme?
 

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55x11 said:
... Maybe after they screwed up with Hamilton and gave him the wrong blood, they decided to "simplify" their blood-bag-naming scheme?
I wonder if Hamilton can sue for that.... Medical malpractice may have ruined his multi-million dollar career!
 

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Call me a Fred
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So what are Hera's and Hamilton's blood types? They both had blood stored at the same place and both failed because they had someone else's blood in their bodies. Mistakes happen.
 

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"Sevilla is friends with a lot of Wurth spaniard riders. He might be a connection to T-Mobile and Jan."

Sevilla's connection to Fuentes is straight forward, IIRC, Sevilla rode for Kelme when Fuentes was their MD. Seems quite likely Sevilla turned Pevenage and Ullrich onto Fuentes. Afterall, Sevilla KNEW Ullrich was involved long before his name was mentioned in the media.

"Maybe after they screwed up with Hamilton and gave him the wrong blood, they decided to "simplify" their blood-bag-naming scheme?"

There's been some speculation that Hamilton was never given someone else's blood per se but that the lab got sloppy and wasn't cleaning the devices well enough and there was a mixing of small amounts of someone else's blood with his. This to me seems unlikely though, as only Tyler and Santi Perez have failed this test. If the lab was sloppy, they seemed to have been particularly sloppy with Hamilton's blood as he was clearly under suspicion for some time.
 

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MikeBiker said:
So what are Hera's and Hamilton's blood types? They both had blood stored at the same place and both failed because they had someone else's blood in their bodies. Mistakes happen.
As the other poster said, you mean Hamilton and Santi Perez. It was long suspected that they switched blood by mistake, but Cyclingnews.com has flatly stated they did not have the same blood type. So this error would likely have very serious consequences and it apparently did not since Perez was riding second on GC when he was caught, IIRC.
 

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Call me a Fred
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I need to get a doping chart to keep the facts straight!
 

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Dwayne Barry said:
"Sevilla is friends with a lot of Wurth spaniard riders. He might be a connection to T-Mobile and Jan."

Sevilla's connection to Fuentes is straight forward, IIRC, Sevilla rode for Kelme when Fuentes was their MD. Seems quite likely Sevilla turned Pevenage and Ullrich onto Fuentes. Afterall, Sevilla KNEW Ullrich was involved long before his name was mentioned in the media.

"Maybe after they screwed up with Hamilton and gave him the wrong blood, they decided to "simplify" their blood-bag-naming scheme?"

There's been some speculation that Hamilton was never given someone else's blood per se but that the lab got sloppy and wasn't cleaning the devices well enough and there was a mixing of small amounts of someone else's blood with his. This to me seems unlikely though, as only Tyler and Santi Perez have failed this test. If the lab was sloppy, they seemed to have been particularly sloppy with Hamilton's blood as he was clearly under suspicion for some time.
I remember reading somewhere that Hamilton was long under suspicion after he won the LBL. The lab reported that they had found abnormalities in the blood but couldn't pinpoint it then he won the Tour of Romandie, these abnormalities showed up again.
I agree that the lab got sloppy and didn't follow protocol. Hamilton may have been able to beat the rap, had his legal team been allowed to show that the lab was mishandling the samples. Wonder if this was the same lab that was handling the Tour samples, in which the French newspapers got their hands on the test results.
 

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55x11 said:
My guess:
Sevilla is friends with a lot of Wurth spaniard riders. He might be a connection to T-Mobile and Jan...Basso is a bit more mysterious.
As far as I know...

Cecchini has ties to Fuentes. Cecchini was Basso's trainer. Cecchini was Riis' trainer when he won the Tour. Ullrich was Riis' team-mate so he probably "got some help from" Cecchini as well.
 

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How about some intrigueing game to kick out the most dangerous riders?

I don´t believe nothing anymore, it´s all complete BSm, the riders should be allowed to do as they like, as everything is startign to get messier with the controlling and this is not the publicity you want to keep anyone away from doping, it´s the opposite!

Maybe it´s a part of the circus to some extend planned and wanted by the riders to some extend serious?

Would the bike sport be popular without the doping affairs?;-)
Soccers fro AC Mailand had enough dope to supply a whole city the next 5 years, didn´t hear much about it.
 

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Welcome to the all drug Olympics.... Let's stop pretending. When a kid hits 18, sign him up and start building the ultimate bike pedaling drug enhanced cycling bio-cyborg. I for one think Lemond has a point, and tend to think his era crossed from the more natural rider to the drug enhanced monster. Saw the '86 Worlds in Co. Springs and felt that there were plenty of club riders that would have been able to sit in on that peloton, not win but at least show up. It just wasn't a super human event to watch. Just a few year later pros just plain look faster, fitter, more alien. No arms at all, vascular legs, the races just look to be insanely fast. I think there is something to it. My opinion is unscientific, and I grew up wanting to be a pro racer, I am the same age as Lance, and at this point feel that there is no way a talented kid could get to that level with hard work, neurotic training, and nutrition. Call me pessimistic, realistic, but hell today's news is bad for the sport. Cheaters are everywhere. The rules exhist, and are specific but everyone is out to "bend' the living crap out of them by using undetectable methods. It's like saying I never used illegal subanstances to aid my performance, but it's not my fault that the stuff I use is so new that it is neither legal or illegal yet, because only a few riders and docs have ever heard of it and there is no way the governing body has a test or opinion on my juice. Let's just make everything under the sun legal, It is the only way to go. All is fair, win or die trying, have at it.
 

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Howzitbroke said:
Welcome to the all drug Olympics.... Let's stop pretending. When a kid hits 18, sign him up and start building the ultimate bike pedaling drug enhanced cycling bio-cyborg. I for one think Lemond has a point, and tend to think his era crossed from the more natural rider to the drug enhanced monster. Saw the '86 Worlds in Co. Springs and felt that there were plenty of club riders that would have been able to sit in on that peloton, not win but at least show up. It just wasn't a super human event to watch. Just a few year later pros just plain look faster, fitter, more alien. No arms at all, vascular legs, the races just look to be insanely fast. I think there is something to it. My opinion is unscientific, and I grew up wanting to be a pro racer, I am the same age as Lance, and at this point feel that there is no way a talented kid could get to that level with hard work, neurotic training, and nutrition. Call me pessimistic, realistic, but hell today's news is bad for the sport. Cheaters are everywhere. The rules exhist, and are specific but everyone is out to "bend' the living crap out of them by using undetectable methods. It's like saying I never used illegal subanstances to aid my performance, but it's not my fault that the stuff I use is so new that it is neither legal or illegal yet, because only a few riders and docs have ever heard of it and there is no way the governing body has a test or opinion on my juice. Let's just make everything under the sun legal, It is the only way to go. All is fair, win or die trying, have at it.
Aww, there there, it will all be ok.


They are all doping, what's your point? Cheaters are everywhere, not just in cycling, but EVERYWHERE, all the whining in the world won't change that.
 

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dlbcx said:
I remember reading somewhere that Hamilton was long under suspicion after he won the LBL. The lab reported that they had found abnormalities in the blood but couldn't pinpoint it then he won the Tour of Romandie, these abnormalities showed up again.
I agree that the lab got sloppy and didn't follow protocol. Hamilton may have been able to beat the rap, had his legal team been allowed to show that the lab was mishandling the samples. Wonder if this was the same lab that was handling the Tour samples, in which the French newspapers got their hands on the test results.

You misunderstand. The speculated sloppy lab was the Fuentes lab supplying Hamilton with blood doping! And IIRC, it wasn't that WADA couldn't "pinpoint" the problem with Hamilton that kept him from being positive, it was the fact that the test for homologous blood doping wasn't officially instituted yet. They warned Hamilton it soon would be so he better clean up his act. I believe it came on-line just before the Olympics, during which Hamilton had a positive A sample, but because a lab tech mistakenly froze his B sample and it could not be tested, he was not stripped of his Olympic TT Gold. However, his luck ran out at the Vuelta that year.
 

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Larry Lackapants
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Conspiracy theory

Let's admit there is no obvious winner out of the Fuentes doping scandal.I think that normally, such a scandal would never happen, because noone would have the interest to trigger it. So I'd keep an eye out on whoever will win this year's tour. I think it's all done to get some of the favourite players out of the way, in order to "level" the path to a tour win for someone.
Let's remember the year Savoldelli won the Giro because all better riders were excluded.

br
 

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James OCLV said:
You can't just accidentally give someone the wrong blood... God forbid it was of a different type. Tyler would have had more to worry about than his career!
I think that's a great point! Should put to rest the "accidental wrong blood bag" theory. If they were so sloppy, people would be dying left and right. Or at least getting hospitalized. I am not a doctor, but I agree with you there.
 

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Sintesi said:
so here are the ringleaders
"According to the investigation documents, the criminal network comprised the following persons: Doctor Eufemiano Fuentes, Manolo Saiz (manager of former team Liberty Seguros), José Luis Merino (Chief of Haematology of Madrid hospital La Princesa), José Ignacio Labarta (assistant director of team Comunidad Valenciana) and Alberto León Herranz (former cyclist and supposedly a courier in the network). "

Now how do all these different riders from different national teams get tied into this single network? the Saiz connection is obvious enough but why would he allow other rivals dope against his own team? Pure profit motive? Has anyone heard how much these riders were paying?

Cecchini's (sp?) name is a corellation for some of these riders, but how do you think they most likely all got funelled into this Dr. Fuentes' office? Word of mouth? They took an ad out in the back pages of Cycle Sport?
They found a copy of fax sent to Hamilton, saying the total cost of his treatment was, something like 30,000 euros and he only paid 8,000 or so. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the drugs found in the investigation, originated from Eastern Europe and the Red Fellas are somehow involved.
 

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Cecchini was Ullrich's "trainer" as well. He is the connection to all the foreign riders. It also means Ferrari has won another round in their long running competition.

The medical research that was done in the Hamilton case and summarized in the CAS decision ruled out not only Perez' blood but all of Tyler's family (to disprove the vanishing twin theory). When they first tested him and warned him to cut it out he was >10% foreign blood, that was down to 1% when the test was approved and he was finally nailed. They also said he showed the blood of at least 5 different people in his veins at various points during the year.

He apparently did do what they asked and stop when they warned him but there wasn't enough time for it to all clear out and I suspect that is the reason he was so pissed off and adamant about all his BS stories. He probably feels it's justified because they did him wrong too.
 
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