have a set of mavic elites older model. these were great improvement over my open pro/dura ace set. Now want even lighter climbing wheels. would these es/sl sets be that much of an improvement and I get a feeling the mavic's have their detractors. Any advice appreciated before I spent the cash.
opinions mavic ES/;08 SL
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in my case , i live in a hilly area , steep short hills, that the elites were lighter feeling and climbing was way easier than the dura ace open pro's . i recently after 1.5 years tried the open pros again and it was instantly obvious they were heavier feeling and harder to climb with. but most important the yellow black elites match my yellow black c 50
hmm, that's interesting... assuming dt comp spokes 32h all round... at worst your wheels prolly weighed a tad over 1700g... more to the point, the worst reading on OP rims is prolly 435g...
both the total and rim weight should be less than the elites....
if u like the light weight thing, and u like the concept/look/feel of the mavic factory wheels in the elites, u'd prolly like the upgrade.... last years ES was a real weight of 1518g, and the elites were around 1790g... so, given your like of these similar wheels, and your use on hills, i'm finding it hard to see how you could be dissappointed with their top alloy offering... and they do look ok, even to me
(and i don't like mavic factory wheels!)
both the total and rim weight should be less than the elites....
if u like the light weight thing, and u like the concept/look/feel of the mavic factory wheels in the elites, u'd prolly like the upgrade.... last years ES was a real weight of 1518g, and the elites were around 1790g... so, given your like of these similar wheels, and your use on hills, i'm finding it hard to see how you could be dissappointed with their top alloy offering... and they do look ok, even to me
(and i don't like mavic factory wheels!)mavic Ks have the same problem as many ofther factory wheels... proprietary spokes and rims etc.... u can break anything on a custom wheel and cheaply and easily fix it...
mavic Ks are also usually far heavier than stated and every publication i have read has tested Ks bottom of the barrel in terms of aero and stiffness... add to that hubs of very average quality (including a pointless bushing that wears and causes play in the system) as well as a known issue of pulling eyelets... etc... also, IMO too few spokes (which are costly to replace as well)...
personally i like campy factory wheels, as although they are still using proprietary parts, the quality is much better IMHO, also in zonda and above u get record internals = loose ball... very nice hubs.... why are they not compatible? campy sells shimano freehubs... if 'campagnolo' written on the side is incompatible, then consider fulcrums....
one factory wheel in low profile and weight that makes sense to me is the hed ardennes... nice wide rim feature, low weight and the hubs are regular straight pull, meaning u can easily replace them with cx-rays.... its also a decent 18/24 set up...
then again, i don't know how much u weigh, or if you care about being without wheels for a while incase of breakage etc ( sounds like u have multiple wheels)... at the end of the day, DA hubs, OP rims redone in say cx-rays or dt revolution spokes should come out to 1575g... if u dropped the spoke count to 28h, it would be 1535... loose ball, easily replaced parts (including rim!) and light (easpecially at the rim)... in all seriousness superior than the es... to support low spoke counts, most factory wheels run heavier rims, IIRC the Ks were about 475g or so....
anyway, ur milage may vary, and u obviously like the mavic factory wheels, so don't let me be overbearing and change ur mind...
mavic Ks are also usually far heavier than stated and every publication i have read has tested Ks bottom of the barrel in terms of aero and stiffness... add to that hubs of very average quality (including a pointless bushing that wears and causes play in the system) as well as a known issue of pulling eyelets... etc... also, IMO too few spokes (which are costly to replace as well)...
personally i like campy factory wheels, as although they are still using proprietary parts, the quality is much better IMHO, also in zonda and above u get record internals = loose ball... very nice hubs.... why are they not compatible? campy sells shimano freehubs... if 'campagnolo' written on the side is incompatible, then consider fulcrums....
one factory wheel in low profile and weight that makes sense to me is the hed ardennes... nice wide rim feature, low weight and the hubs are regular straight pull, meaning u can easily replace them with cx-rays.... its also a decent 18/24 set up...
then again, i don't know how much u weigh, or if you care about being without wheels for a while incase of breakage etc ( sounds like u have multiple wheels)... at the end of the day, DA hubs, OP rims redone in say cx-rays or dt revolution spokes should come out to 1575g... if u dropped the spoke count to 28h, it would be 1535... loose ball, easily replaced parts (including rim!) and light (easpecially at the rim)... in all seriousness superior than the es... to support low spoke counts, most factory wheels run heavier rims, IIRC the Ks were about 475g or so....
anyway, ur milage may vary, and u obviously like the mavic factory wheels, so don't let me be overbearing and change ur mind...
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Mavics seem to have a solid reputation in their mid-line products, from what I've read. I think a major factor in why they are so popular is due to the appearance of them.
Consider them, but also consider the Fulcrum wheels made by Campagnolo - very good stuff for similar looks and price. http://www.biketiresdirect.com/search_results.asp?rs=fu&so=p&cat=cw
Consider them, but also consider the Fulcrum wheels made by Campagnolo - very good stuff for similar looks and price. http://www.biketiresdirect.com/search_results.asp?rs=fu&so=p&cat=cw
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650 Posts
I don't know about you but I've never seen a K that was even close to the stated weight. Plus the Al spokes that Mavic uses are not stiff or strong, but they are expensive to replace.wankski said:
Older Ksyriums seem to be more reliable than recent production (e.g. new plastic freehub bushing that wears out causing noise/looseness). My 07's required retruing twice in 1st 500mi, and I'm only 165#. Never had that happen with my other 6 wheelsets of other makes. Unless you get a GREAT sale, Ksyriums are seldom the best wheels for the $$$.
BTW- Check out analyticcycling.com & plug in just how much power is saved climbing by dropping a couple hundred grams (a generous estimate of your old elites vs DA/OP's). It ain't much at all.
Buy some new SL's for bling if you like, but like wankski said you can have lighter (and prob more reliable) wheels built cheaper. Either way, any significant performance improvement over your elites would be mainly placebo effect.
Or you could just paint your bike 'cause we all know red bikes are faster
BTW- Check out analyticcycling.com & plug in just how much power is saved climbing by dropping a couple hundred grams (a generous estimate of your old elites vs DA/OP's). It ain't much at all.
Buy some new SL's for bling if you like, but like wankski said you can have lighter (and prob more reliable) wheels built cheaper. Either way, any significant performance improvement over your elites would be mainly placebo effect.
Or you could just paint your bike 'cause we all know red bikes are faster
thanks for the info. I took off my K elite('06 $300/set new) and with tires and cassette on,it was heavier than the open pro with dura ace, tire cassette. the fronts are similar. Now is it something else; rotating weight or aero effect I feel or am I just feeling a placebo. I will try this week again with just the front change. I am not stuck on any product, I appreciate the info as I took Mavic on it;s word for the weight. The wheel builder in town says the elites are more reliable than the es something to do with the hub and al+ spokes. where is the info on weights and aero performance I can see.
weights as always can be found on weightweenies... google it and look up the listings...
aero/stiffness data:
http://rouesartisanales.over-blog.com/article-15505311.html
^^^ that is the 2008 tests, click on 'studies' to find older ones that list elites and sls and es side by side.. etc...
as i mentioned earlier, take my word for it... the rim weight of OPs is around 435g, it is heavier for elites... k sls are around 475g... i didn;t want to say since some posters get offended, but the 'lightness/inertia' imporvment of factory wheels is placebo... the real numbers don't add up... even if you could tell the diff b/w 200g on a rider/bike combo pushing 90 odd kilos etc...
i also concur w/ your source re: spokes... alu is not a good material for it, and the elites are much the same thing as Sls etc, just not as much material milled out, and of course s/s instead of alu spokes... as tested, stiffer and more aero (tho its all marginal)...
aero/stiffness data:
http://rouesartisanales.over-blog.com/article-15505311.html
^^^ that is the 2008 tests, click on 'studies' to find older ones that list elites and sls and es side by side.. etc...
as i mentioned earlier, take my word for it... the rim weight of OPs is around 435g, it is heavier for elites... k sls are around 475g... i didn;t want to say since some posters get offended, but the 'lightness/inertia' imporvment of factory wheels is placebo... the real numbers don't add up... even if you could tell the diff b/w 200g on a rider/bike combo pushing 90 odd kilos etc...
i also concur w/ your source re: spokes... alu is not a good material for it, and the elites are much the same thing as Sls etc, just not as much material milled out, and of course s/s instead of alu spokes... as tested, stiffer and more aero (tho its all marginal)...
well you are correct, i took off the fronts and with wheels tires tubes skewer the open pro mavic/dura ace is lighter even with a heavier tire vredstein vs vittoria. I am going to do my time trial workout and bring both, a totally flat 10 mile course. No reason to buy the es now. how is your info on ROLF vigors.
http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=383998
http://www.bikexprt.com/witness/product/wheels.htm
personally, i don't like them... if they are the 14/16 paired spoke version, they have far too few spokes, and the paired design is not ideal.... i would not run these, i weigh just under180.. maybe if you were real light u could get away with it...
honestly, if you want aero and light, talk to the wheelbuilders here... ergott, rruff, and ligero are all amazing to deal with...
ligero has his own triplet hubs available, and all can build a quality hub up to nio27 or 30mm profile rims with cx-ray spokes... u can easily get a build under 1400g with the 27s, they are pretty aero for alu, yet sport light rims, and the spokes are replaceable and fairly cheap in the scheme of things to replace... a pretty good wheelset for flats and hills....JMO...
if you'd like low profile wheels, i'd ceck out the dt1450s... very nice quality, and should be under es and rolf money... alternatively, assuming your DA/OP wheels are 32h heavy dt comp + brass nips, u can rebuild these w/ cx-rays and drop roughly 130g over the wheelset... they would come in under 1600g... lighter than the real weight of Mavic K SLs, and with lighter rims.... win win... 64 cx-rays in silver should cost around $160
http://www.bikexprt.com/witness/product/wheels.htm
personally, i don't like them... if they are the 14/16 paired spoke version, they have far too few spokes, and the paired design is not ideal.... i would not run these, i weigh just under180.. maybe if you were real light u could get away with it...
honestly, if you want aero and light, talk to the wheelbuilders here... ergott, rruff, and ligero are all amazing to deal with...
ligero has his own triplet hubs available, and all can build a quality hub up to nio27 or 30mm profile rims with cx-ray spokes... u can easily get a build under 1400g with the 27s, they are pretty aero for alu, yet sport light rims, and the spokes are replaceable and fairly cheap in the scheme of things to replace... a pretty good wheelset for flats and hills....JMO...
if you'd like low profile wheels, i'd ceck out the dt1450s... very nice quality, and should be under es and rolf money... alternatively, assuming your DA/OP wheels are 32h heavy dt comp + brass nips, u can rebuild these w/ cx-rays and drop roughly 130g over the wheelset... they would come in under 1600g... lighter than the real weight of Mavic K SLs, and with lighter rims.... win win... 64 cx-rays in silver should cost around $160
wanski, you smart, looked up all this and read the french data you are correct I was about to waste big cash on a very similar wheel. the ligero(Italian for light) is my cup of tea. I looked up the site it seems you can just buy them pre made? $850 or so? tell me more about this guy and his wheels where is he? thanks by the way, I also have a custom steel bike with new open pros on my 25 year old campy seven speed hubs, 36 hole Not much heavier than all the rest..........jc
hey, u're welcome... just glad u found my suggestions helpful, some people take the advice a little less well...
there are other options... White industries hubs are also quite excellent... made in the US, swiss bearings...built into nio27 rims for example, should cost somewhere around $600. c.1430g..
ligero, rruff, and ergott are all based in the US and are regular posters here... best consult with them....
try sending them a pm...
ligero: http://forums.roadbikereview.com/member.php?u=251999
web: http://www.ligerowheels.com/
rruff: http://forums.roadbikereview.com/member.php?u=256536
web: www.whitemountainwheels.com
ergott: http://forums.roadbikereview.com/member.php?u=256487
web: http://www.ergottwheels.com/
there are other options... White industries hubs are also quite excellent... made in the US, swiss bearings...built into nio27 rims for example, should cost somewhere around $600. c.1430g..
ligero, rruff, and ergott are all based in the US and are regular posters here... best consult with them....
try sending them a pm...
ligero: http://forums.roadbikereview.com/member.php?u=251999
web: http://www.ligerowheels.com/
rruff: http://forums.roadbikereview.com/member.php?u=256536
web: www.whitemountainwheels.com
ergott: http://forums.roadbikereview.com/member.php?u=256487
web: http://www.ergottwheels.com/
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2,673 Posts
you can rebuild using the DA hubs with lighter rims and ight spokes and still get weight your looking for at a lower cost. Here's a price list so you can estimate cost. http://www.alchemybicycleworks.com/ABW Price List 04-10-08.pdf you could sell the OP rims on eBay to recoupe some of the cost. Cheap route but it requires alot of acquisision on your part.
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