[Dwaynebarry]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/two-people-named-by-landis-may-co-operate-with-authorities

So what will the folks who think Landis is making this all up say if other riders corroborate his claims? Why would riders be considering cooperating if there isn't something to Landis' accusations?

I doubt Bruyneel/Armstrong and company are sleeping as well now as they were over the last couple of weeks. Getting people involved who actually have investigative powers and the ability to force people to give evidence at the risk of perjuring themselves changes a lot.

 

[3rensho]

I'm betting on Zabriskie stepping in to 'splain himself. He seems like he'd want to set the record straight. I'd also think that there could be reason for someone like Michael Barry to do the same. Frankie Andreu might also be willing to go on the record. I'm just thinking about it from the perspective of who is trading on their 'clean' participation in pro cycling. I still think that Garmin is racing on the level and would love to think Sky has the same philosophy as well. Frankie has already gotten knocked around a little by the Armstrong camp and could easily validate his version of Floyd's stories if they are true. Frankie has already spoken on the record relative to that LA insurance case from a few years ago, right? He's got very little to lose in this by speaking. Probably a bit of attention to gain, if I was being cynical about it (!)

I guess the 'little to lose' philosophy could apply to Tyler as well. A bit of a rouges gallery I'll agree but I'd imagine the Feds learned something about this game from BALCO. Jose Canseco had little credibility for very similar reasons and turned out to be speaking the truth about the problem in baseball.

I'm hoping this is about to get really interesting. That's why the release of those email messages seemed like more of a strategy than an explanation of FL's motives. I'd still think the people who are really, really PO'd about Floyd will still say that if you haven't tested positive, you're not a doper. The evidence against that thinking is mounting.

 

[robdamanii]

"Cooperating" doesn't necessarily mean "guilty"

Never has, never will.

 

[blackhat]

"Cooperating" doesn't necessarily mean "guilty"

Never has, never will.

No, but "in exchange for leniency" would seem to suggest that there's something compelling them besides the desire for a clear conscience.

 

[Dwaynebarry]

I'm betting on Zabriskie stepping in to 'splain himself. QUOTE]

That would be my bet. He and Landis are suppose to be good buddies, Landis is supposed to have stayed with him just before all this went down. JV seems to be saying "he's riding clean now".

Obvious deal would be telling what he knows about his own and other riders past doping in exchange for a reduced or no suspension at all. These are just the kind of deals the UCI has always opposed because they don't want anyone talking. It will be interesting if this pans out, to see what kind of stance USA cycling takes on such deal, since Johnson is suppose to be Armstrong & Weisel's man.

 

[Comer]

You know, love him or hate him Armstrong has done more for cycling in the US than anyone. No, I don't ride a Trek and I've been into cycling way before Armstrong came around. I actually named my son after him in 1989 When Lance was a triathlete and my son's middle name is Davis, so you know where my thinking was. It's amazing so many people want the guy to fail? I even read one post where a guy said he'd like to see him cuffed, WTF???

I don't get it. My life isn't changed whether these allegations are true of false. Don't give me this **** that so and so would've won, hell they were doing it too more than likely...

I was one of those people that actually believed FL, but which FL do I believe? The one that testified, collaborated on a book, lost everything to prove his innocence? Or, do I believe the FL that's pissed and rightfully so that he has pretty much been black balled when others have not? Who do I believe?

Plus I still love Lemond, in the mid to late eighties, he was the man for USA cycling. Love the guy. I don't know, I just don't understand the hatred for Armstrong? Is it his success? I applaud it.

Finally, because of the Armstrong factor there are a lot of really cool people that I get to cycle with, people that probably would've never discovered the beauty of the sport if not for his dominance at the Td'F and his popularity, for that I am thankful for the many newer friendships.

 

[stevesbike]

The game really changes now that Jeff Novitzky is involved leading an FDA investigation (of BALCO). The threat of grand jury testimony, indictments, and jail time for perjury (Marion Jones) will likely loosen some tongues.

 

[ghost6]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/two-people-named-by-landis-may-co-operate-with-authorities

So what will the folks who think Landis is making this all up say if other riders corroborate his claims? Why would riders be considering cooperating if there isn't something to Landis' accusations?

I doubt Bruyneel/Armstrong and company are sleeping as well now as they were over the last couple of weeks. Getting people involved who actually have investigative powers and the ability to force people to give evidence at the risk of perjuring themselves changes a lot.

The point is that Landis is not trustworthy, and he's proven this for at least four years. Apparently Landis cannot prove his accusations. If he can, it seems that he would've handed over the "proof" rather than simply accuse. At this point, his whole story reeks of careless anger. He's just trying desperately to take down anyone with him. And what if "other riders" corroborate his claims? Unless Landis has undeniable evidence, the only way your target (Bruyneel/Armstrong) will go down would be by their own confession. "Proof" in a court-of-law does not exist in the form verbal accusations or corroborations, regardless of the number.

 

[Mr. Scary]

The point is that Landis is not trustworthy, and he's proven this for at least four years. Apparently Landis cannot prove his accusations. If he can, it seems that he would've handed over the "proof" rather than simply accuse. At this point, his whole story reeks of careless anger. He's just trying desperately to take down anyone with him. And what if "other riders" corroborate his claims? Unless Landis has undeniable evidence, the only way your target (Bruyneel/Armstrong) will go down would be by their own confession. "Proof" in a court-of-law does not exist in the form verbal accusations or corroborations, regardless of the number.

Actually, corroboration is accepted in a court of law as a form or means of evidence. If Zabriskie, Leipheimer, and Hincapie all corroborated that they also doped themselves and with the help or direction of Armstrong/Bruyneel this would be very damaging to LA, especially if it is true that US Federal investigators are now assigned to the case.

 

[ghost6]

Actually, corroboration is accepted in a court of law as a form or means of evidence. If Zabriskie, Leipheimer, and Hincapie all corroborated that they also doped themselves and with the help or direction of Armstrong/Bruyneel this would be very damaging to LA, especially if it is true that US Federal investigators are now assigned to the case.

True. But as I implied, corroboration alone is not necessarily "proof." The right form of corroboration could be damaging, but not necessarily enough to establish legal guilt. The corroborators must convince the investigators that their story is true. Of course, Lance's critics will likely take nearly anyone's word that he dopes, but investigators cannot do this. Even if--and this is a big if--Zabriskie, Leipheimer, and Hincapie "corroborated" it does not automatically equal guilt for Armstrong and company. Damaging, yes. Guilt, not necessarily.

 

[DMFT]

So. Who else will come "forward" ???
Andreu & Vaughters??? They already have haven't they? Nothing "new" there...
Maybe LeMond finally???

 

[rook]

Armstrong, Bruyneel, Eki... those guys are not sleeping as well as they are leading the public to believe.

The guys that can corroborate the dope info are not talking to the media...yet. For now, there is most likely an investigation underway. And those people WILL tell the truth to federal investigators, or face perjury charges later on. The UCI president has something to hide. USA Cycling has something to hide. There are alot of sleepless people involved in this.

 

[SilasCL]

True. But as I implied, corroboration alone is not necessarily "proof." The right form of corroboration could be damaging, but not necessarily enough to establish legal guilt. The corroborators must convince the investigators that their story is true. Of course, Lance's critics will likely take nearly anyone's word that he dopes, but investigators cannot do this. Even if--and this is a big if--Zabriskie, Leipheimer, and Hincapie "corroborated" it does not automatically equal guilt for Armstrong and company. Damaging, yes. Guilt, not necessarily.

DNA evidence left at the scene of the crime is not necessarily proof, ask OJ. Nothing automatically equals guilt, so pointing out that numerous eyewitnesses don't equal guilt is beside the point.

We'll see what comes of these other riders and how much they are willing to say.

 

[ghost6]

DNA evidence left at the scene of the crime is not necessarily proof, ask OJ. Nothing automatically equals guilt, so pointing out that numerous eyewitnesses don't equal guilt is beside the point.

We'll see what comes of these other riders and how much they are willing to say.

I agree with you about what equals guilt, but pointing out that eyewitnesses doesn't equal guilt is relevant on this forum because many assume that accusations and potential corroborations spells definitive guilt.

 

[eyebob]

I'm confused. What crime would have been committed?

Why would there be an FBI inquiry? Dealing the drugs? I think that if you're going to compare this scandal to the BALCO scandal then you should know that those under investigation are there because there was a crime committed, the selling and distribution of the drugs. We don't have that here. Just the (alleged) use. So, would the FBI be interested in tracing back to where the supply came from? Maybe. Then we have BALCO in US cycling.

bt

 

[Mr. Scary]

Why would there be an FBI inquiry? Dealing the drugs? I think that if you're going to compare this scandal to the BALCO scandal then you should know that those under investigation are there because there was a crime committed, the selling and distribution of the drugs. We don't have that here. Just the (alleged) use. So, would the FBI be interested in tracing back to where the supply came from? Maybe. Then we have BALCO in US cycling.

bt

Possession, EPO is a controlled substance... That would be the start of it, but surely many civil suits would come into play if it was proved that Armstrong doped.

 

[rook]

People will go to prison over this

Possession, EPO is a controlled substance... That would be the start of it, but surely many civil suits would come into play if it was proved that Armstrong doped.

And criminal charges as well. There is a reason why the EPO suppliers, doctors, trainers, etc. may be very scared right now. Vials, drugs, the whole lot, all have a paper trail.

People associated with helping an athlete obtain these drugs will go to prison. There is precedent for this already. Bond's former trainer, Greg Anderson, did not cooperate with federal investigators in the BALCO incident. They traced information back to the trainer and boom! Prison sentence for the trainer.

Are the team docs, trainers, athletes, even other people associated with Armstrong afraid yet? They should be.

 

[robdamanii]

And criminal charges as well. There is a reason why the EPO suppliers, doctors, trainers, etc. may be very scared right now. Vials, drugs, the whole lot, all have a paper trail.

People associated with helping an athlete obtain these drugs will go to prison. There is precedent for this already. Bond's former trainer, Greg Anderson, did not cooperate with federal investigators in the BALCO incident. They traced information back to the trainer and boom! Prison sentence for the trainer.

Are the team docs, trainers, athletes, even other people associated with Armstrong afraid yet? They should be.

You keep claiming that people should be afraid.

Somehow, I don't think they are. I think they know a WHOLE lot more than you, and they know exactly what they are dealing with, unlike you.

Howabout we just let this shake out, stop speculating and see what happens. Hrm?

 

[vandalbob]

Nobody Likes A Rat

Even if the rat is correct, truthful, accurate, etc.....it takes cajones the size of grapefruit to step forward.

 

[blackhat]

You keep claiming that people should be afraid.

Somehow, I don't think they are. I think they know a WHOLE lot more than you, and they know exactly what they are dealing with, unlike you.

Howabout we just let this shake out, stop speculating and see what happens. Hrm?

What they know is why they're nervous, I suspect.

That aside, I'd be somewhat less than "tranquil" if <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Novitzky">Jeff Novitzky</a> were building a file on me.