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I heart team Zissou!
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As the world turns....

El Pais is reporting that Piepoli has admitted to using EPO and has reportedly said he is on the same stuff as Ricco. Meanwhile, Ricco denies any wrongdoing and is vowing to fight the test.

No doubt LNDD is behind Piepoli's admission of guilt!

Same as it ever was......

<i>Piepoli aurait avoué
Cyclisme - Tour de France
Selon le quotidien espagnol El Pais, Leonardo Piepoli a avoué au directeur sportif de Saunier Duval, Joxean Fernandez Matxin, qu'il avait pris de l'EPO.

"J'ai fait la même chose que Riccardo", aurait confié Piepoli, ce qui explique que le vainqueur de l'étape d'Hautacam ait été licencié en même temps que Ricco, alors qu'il n'a subi encore aucun controle positif sur le Tour de France.</i>
 

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Piepole knows he has no chance of riding again and is accepting od his fate? while ricco tries to dodge the preverbial bullet to ride in the next few years, maybe he should take up a kas licence to ride with vino!
 

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Ron&Fez XM202/Sirius197
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I tend to think the Piepoli, age 37 was mentoring Ricco, age 23 on how to dope. Find it hard to believe that Ricco was a doping expert. Needed a mentor to "show him the way". If he is going to admit guilt, admit that he convinced/assisted Ricco with how to use EPO. Not that its right, but understandable that a young rider would believe the promises of his mentor that he looks up to. Many were singing Ricco's praise after helping Peipoli get his stage win. That showed he did respect him. It was clear that Ricco could have won that stage too the way he was excelerating on the leaders then backing off. Trying to break them. Shame of it is, that he was so strong on EPO, he probably would still outclimb many of them without it. Hope to see Ricco again in 2 years......
 

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likes to eat donuts
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I thought that the way it works is if the rider vehemently denies any involment with doping, it means that they are innocent and that the system is corrupt and out to get them?
And the more time and money they spend fighting the system, the more that we feel some sort of empathy for them, and then we also start to believe in the conspiracy as well? :D
 

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Bry03cobra said:
I tend to think the Piepoli, age 37 was mentoring Ricco, age 23 on how to dope. Find it hard to believe that Ricco was a doping expert. Needed a mentor to "show him the way". If he is going to admit guilt, admit that he convinced/assisted Ricco with how to use EPO. Not that its right, but understandable that a young rider would believe the promises of his mentor that he looks up to. QUOTE]


According to Jerome Pineau's blog, Ricco was bragging about doping to his friends when he was as young as 15 and even showing them how to do it.

Babelfish translation:

"And I am delighted he has been taken because Ricco, arrogant, dragging pots behind him. I have Italian friends who, when they ran with him in 15 years, told me that he boasted to boost and they even showed how he was doing."

http://jpineau.blogs.velomagazine.fr/
 

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Ron&Fez XM202/Sirius197
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Barry Muzzin said:
According to Jerome Pineau's blog, Ricco was bragging about doping to his friends when he was as young as 15 and even showing them how to do it.
Blogger who got the info second hand. Not saying he didn't, but blogs are the last place to find truth. Cyclingnews.com is reporting that piepoli admitted to supplying Ricco with 3rd gen epo.
 

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Jerome Pineau...

rides for Bouygues Telecom, so I wouldn't call him just another blogger. I tend to believe the pros know quite a bit more about who is doing what in the peloton than we do here on the interwebs.

My point is that while Piepoli may have been supplying Ricco, I don't for a minute believe that Ricco was not somewhat of an expert on doping (like his hero Il Pirata). YMMV
 

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mohair_chair said:
If Piepoli is on the same stuff as Ricco, then we should hear of his own positive in the next few days. I think it will be very interesting if that <u>doesn't</u> happen.
Why? As we've seen over and over, testing negative doesn't prove anything.

What will be so interesting?

All this stuff about smoking guns is illogical and immature.

As in we need a "smoking gun" in relation to any crime or doping. That is not real life. If we had to meet the standard of guilt some people want to advance here, absolutely no one would ever be convicted of any crime.

It's kind of funny how people cling to these crazy standards of proof with others, but most will not suspend belief when the evidence is presented against their children...

Wake up...
 

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Ron&Fez XM202/Sirius197
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I don't doubt he has seen more than any of us. My statement about bloggers wasn't explained clearly by me. Bloggers can post whatever they want with no proof. Kinda like here. I started a post questioning Lemond possibly using EPO. If I printed that in a newspaper or on a ligitimate news site I would be sued. I don't doubt anything in cycling anymore, did Ricco use as a 15 year old?? Sure its possible, but unless someone who witnessed it with their own eyes comes forward, can't believe a blogger knowmatter who the blogger is.
 

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lookrider said:
Why? As we've seen over and over, testing negative doesn't prove anything.

What will be so interesting?

All this stuff about smoking guns is illogical and immature.

As in we need a "smoking gun" in relation to any crime or doping. That is not real life. If we had to meet the standard of guilt some people want to advance here, absolutely no one would ever be convicted of any crime.

It's kind of funny how people cling to these crazy standards of proof with others, but most will not suspend belief when the evidence is presented against their children...

Wake up...
Not sure what the point of your rant is, but I'm sure your lackadaisical thoughts on standards of guilt would change dramatically should you ever be accused of a crime. Or your children.

Anyway, this is a really simple case. Rider A says he is on the same advanced stuff as rider B. Rider B has already tested positive. Therefore, my expectation is that Rider A will test positive as well. Doesn't that make sense? It's the most basic form of deductive reasoning.

Say Rider A doesn't test positive. Why would this not be the case? Well, let's posit some answers:
<table><tr><td>1. Rider A is lying.</td><td>Definitely possible (but this makes no sense).</td></tr>
<tr><td>2. Rider A has figured out how to beat the test</td><td>Definitely possible.</td></tr>
<tr><td>3. The test for the advanced stuff isn't good enough.</td><td>Definitely possible.</td></tr>
</table>
But you're right. This doesn't matter. None of this is of any interest. It's far more important to move on, rather than figure out why a guy who <u>admits</u> he took something doesn't test positive for it. Nope, that stuff should just be swept under the rug with the other mysteries of drug testing.

Who needs to wake up now?
 

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Ron&Fez XM202/Sirius197
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Mohair
Some battles can't be won. I notice some here don't think mistakes can be made. Any and every rider doped (except Lord Lemond).
--------------------

Cycling is a dirty sport that's trying to clean up. Just beacause a rider doped, don't make him a bad person. When your job is at stake, and you assume that guy trying to take your spot is doping, what choice do ya have?? You have no skills other than riding your bike. They try to take advantage of PED's. The testing is the problem. As long as there is shottie testing and media leaks.....guilt will be doubted. I for one think Floyd Landis should have got off, he probably was using the Tpatch just like everybody else does. Lance....my opinion is he probably used EPO before the tests, then blood doped after the EPO test. But, So what. Every TDF podium he stood on, had dopers on both sides of him. Once the testing is fixed, the doping will stop. Check out cyclingnews.com today. Aparently there is a bunch of EPO failures that the WADA is sitting on. I would copy it here, but can't on my blackberry.
 

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Even this very case shows that system is ot alright.

Ricco was caught with non-existent (ok, not officially approved) test.
Strictly speaking, such test is not allowed to be named positve and cause sanctions.

It looks as if some additional evidence was gathered afterwards, but as far as I know no official statement was made in this regard, so to the moment all it is on "hearsay" level.

It is utmost unlikely that Ricco is really innocent, but it by not means excuse yet another violation of the due process by the system.

Regards,

Oleksandr
piano said:
I thought that the way it works is if the rider vehemently denies any involment with doping, it means that they are innocent and that the system is corrupt and out to get them?
And the more time and money they spend fighting the system, the more that we feel some sort of empathy for them, and then we also start to believe in the conspiracy as well? :D
 

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I think you guys are looking at it too simply. It's not like a basic test where a solution turns red if someone dopes, and green if they are ok.

There is interpretation of the results, and limits that have to be hit. If Ricco is barely over the limit or right on it, it doesn't mean Piepoli will test positive.

Also a doper may be able to get away with it 1/100 times. This time he got unlucky. Its a crap shoot. And thats why riders will continue to dope. They know there is a chance they will not be caught. Same as you or me betting at the casino.
 

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"Same as you or me betting at the casino."

They (dopers) are betting more then you or me at the casino. They are betting their whole career,some millions $$. I am not that Hi-Roller. Odds are about the same win a little or lose alot.
 

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You are correct that most people don't bet that big. But I do remember several years ago reading in the news about a gentleman that sold EVERYTHING, he only had the clothes on his back, and bet on BLACK. Yup, he doubled up.

For some pros, its not win a little lose a lot. Its a double edged sword. Cheat and make a decent living, don't cheat and hope he has an education to back up his mediocre crit level and lung capacity.

When they get caught, sure they lose their careers, but its the drugs that made the career.

Feel lucky today? =)
 

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al0 said:
Even this very case shows that system is ot alright.

Ricco was caught with non-existent (ok, not officially approved) test.
Strictly speaking, such test is not allowed to be named positve and cause sanctions.

It looks as if some additional evidence was gathered afterwards, but as far as I know no official statement was made in this regard, so to the moment all it is on "hearsay" level.

It is utmost unlikely that Ricco is really innocent, but it by not means excuse yet another violation of the due process by the system.

Regards,

Oleksandr
Ricco was caught with the UCI approved EPO test according to ProCycling editor Daniel Friebe.

"CERA and normal, EPO-beta are molecularly very similar, which means that they both show up in a similar way in the same test," he told me. "The difference is the molecular mass and the fact that a sample has to contain a lot of CERA to meet the criteria for a positive test. A specific test for CERA is being developed, but it'll be a blood test. In the meantime, several labs across the world have been looking at how CERA appears in the normal EPO urine test. Providing it's there in large enough quantities, those labs can now see it and generically declare it an 'EPO positive'."


http://www.bikeradar.com/blogs/article/naughtiness-on-the-agnello-17646
 

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Ron&Fez XM202/Sirius197
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I posted this in its own thread....but seems fitting here. This is why there is questions of riders guilt or innocense. Fix the testing and the dopers will stop.
_______________________________________________________

from cyclingnews.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'Obvious' EPO positives being ignored by WADA

A report by the BBC has claimed that the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) is failing to catch a large number of athletes using the banned blood booster EPO due to a flawed criteria by which samples are declared positive. The report also highlights the growing problem of bio-similar EPOs - those which have a slightly different molecular fingerprint to regular EPO and therefore may not produce a positive sample under WADA's current criteria.

According to Dr Rasmus Damsgaard, an anti-doping expert who oversees the internal testing programs for both CSC-Saxo Bank and Astana, WADA laboratories are sitting on "a mountain of positive EPO" from athletes that have not failed a test. Dr Damsgaard inspected the electronic profiles, or gels as they are known, of five samples declared negative by a WADA laboratory, and said they showed clear signs of EPO being present.

"It was very obvious that the gels were very un-natural or very different from natural distributions," Damsgaard told the BBC. "But I also saw that they were declared negative because they didn't fulfil the WADA criteria of a positive test; although they looked suspicious and had no natural bands at all, they were still declared negative.

"WADA is sitting on a mountain of positive EPO. They have these very strict rules, and declare that everything is working fine. But it's not working at all! You can more or less do whatever you like with EPO and you will not be charged."

German anti-doping expert Professor Werner Franke, well known for his stance against Jan Ullrich and the former T-Mobile team, said the large number of bio-similar EPOs makes it difficult to formulate a single test to detect all of them. "There are now a number of compounds that bind to the EPO receptor, and there is no single test for them," Franke told the BBC. "You can order it here over the internet and it will be delivered to you here in the UK or in Germany; Chinese-made doping substances."

Following the failed doping test by Riccardo Riccò at the Tour de France, who was reported to have been using a new form of EPO called Micera, WADA spokesman Frédéric Donzé told Cyclingnews that his agency was aware of new EPOs coming onto the market.

"WADA is very much aware of the development of new EPOs and bio-similar EPOs in an expanding market," Donzé said. "A number of these new EPOs and bio similar EPOs are well known and can be detected through current tests."

Moreover, WADA's scientific director Dr Oliver Rabin said he was "reasonably confident" that any athlete using EPO at the upcoming Olympic Games in Beijing would fall foul of anti-doping controls.

"It would be very presumptuous on my part to say that we are absolutely 100 percent sure we are going to get everyone," Rabin told the BBC. "But I can assure you that if you were to take recombinant EPO and that would be in your urine - then, yes, we would detect it."
 

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Bry03cobra said:
I posted this in its own thread....but seems fitting here. This is why there is questions of riders guilt or innocense. Fix the testing and the dopers will stop.
_______________________________________________________

from cyclingnews.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'Obvious' EPO positives being ignored by WADA

A report by the BBC has claimed that the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) is failing to catch a large number of athletes using the banned blood booster EPO due to a flawed criteria by which samples are declared positive. The report also highlights the growing problem of bio-similar EPOs - those which have a slightly different molecular fingerprint to regular EPO and therefore may not produce a positive sample under WADA's current criteria.

According to Dr Rasmus Damsgaard, an anti-doping expert who oversees the internal testing programs for both CSC-Saxo Bank and Astana, WADA laboratories are sitting on "a mountain of positive EPO" from athletes that have not failed a test. Dr Damsgaard inspected the electronic profiles, or gels as they are known, of five samples declared negative by a WADA laboratory, and said they showed clear signs of EPO being present.

"It was very obvious that the gels were very un-natural or very different from natural distributions," Damsgaard told the BBC. "But I also saw that they were declared negative because they didn't fulfil the WADA criteria of a positive test; although they looked suspicious and had no natural bands at all, they were still declared negative.

"WADA is sitting on a mountain of positive EPO. They have these very strict rules, and declare that everything is working fine. But it's not working at all! You can more or less do whatever you like with EPO and you will not be charged."

German anti-doping expert Professor Werner Franke, well known for his stance against Jan Ullrich and the former T-Mobile team, said the large number of bio-similar EPOs makes it difficult to formulate a single test to detect all of them. "There are now a number of compounds that bind to the EPO receptor, and there is no single test for them," Franke told the BBC. "You can order it here over the internet and it will be delivered to you here in the UK or in Germany; Chinese-made doping substances."

Following the failed doping test by Riccardo Riccò at the Tour de France, who was reported to have been using a new form of EPO called Micera, WADA spokesman Frédéric Donzé told Cyclingnews that his agency was aware of new EPOs coming onto the market.

"WADA is very much aware of the development of new EPOs and bio-similar EPOs in an expanding market," Donzé said. "A number of these new EPOs and bio similar EPOs are well known and can be detected through current tests."

Moreover, WADA's scientific director Dr Oliver Rabin said he was "reasonably confident" that any athlete using EPO at the upcoming Olympic Games in Beijing would fall foul of anti-doping controls.

"It would be very presumptuous on my part to say that we are absolutely 100 percent sure we are going to get everyone," Rabin told the BBC. "But I can assure you that if you were to take recombinant EPO and that would be in your urine - then, yes, we would detect it."
The challenge with "Fixing" the testing is will it stand up to a well funded riders attack in court? We saw how Flandis and Tyler were able to raise millions of dollars and get thousands of people to question the entire process with what was largely smoke and mirrors.
 
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