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zigare said:
Jan is not a good climber but sure I think his focus is on Le Tour
Jan isn't a good climber?Care to back that up or do you like making random,incorrect statements for the hell of it?

Actually,Jan is a damn good climber and has finished quite well with some of the best.He does lack the "snappy" accelerations like some "climbers".However,he can motor up a climb at a damn good pace.
 

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R.Rice said:
Actually,Jan is a damn good climber and has finished quite well with some of the best.He does lack the "snappy" accelerations like some "climbers".However,he can motor up a climb at a damn good pace.
Intersting quote about that from Cyclingnews.com, from Bjarne Riis:


Riis and Basso may not be copying Armstrong's total focus on the Tour de France, but Riis said they have learned from another of the seven-time Tour winner's techniques, the high-cadence pedaling action that allowed him to attack and react quickly in the mountains of the Tour.

"We saw that Armstrong rode small gears and was very agile on the climbs and that uses your muscles differently and allows you to change pace more easily," Riis said. "We know that Jan Ullrich can't do that because he pushes big gears and so we're convinced he'll struggle to stay with Ivan when he accelerates on the climbs in the Tour de France."
 

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Americano_a_Roma said:
Intersting quote about that from Cyclingnews.com, from Bjarne Riis:


Riis and Basso may not be copying Armstrong's total focus on the Tour de France, but Riis said they have learned from another of the seven-time Tour winner's techniques, the high-cadence pedaling action that allowed him to attack and react quickly in the mountains of the Tour.

"We saw that Armstrong rode small gears and was very agile on the climbs and that uses your muscles differently and allows you to change pace more easily," Riis said. "We know that Jan Ullrich can't do that because he pushes big gears and so we're convinced he'll struggle to stay with Ivan when he accelerates on the climbs in the Tour de France."
Does this mean that, while riding at a high cadence, the rider will just shift up a gear or two when he wants to accelerate and that the guy using the lower cadence/bigger gear has no quick way to respond? If so, that sounds like a definite advatage to me. The lower cadence guy probably has to get out of the seat to respond with the same quickness.
 

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R.Rice said:
Jan isn't a good climber?Care to back that up or do you like making random,incorrect statements for the hell of it?

Actually,Jan is a damn good climber and has finished quite well with some of the best.He does lack the "snappy" accelerations like some "climbers".However,he can motor up a climb at a damn good pace.
Jan is NOT a great climber. He is a great time trialist.

Basso beat Ullrich over the last two TdF only because Ullrich is not a great climber. He would lose time on climbs, try to get some of it back on time trials but will still lose by quite a wide margin.

This year Basso appears to be on a roll. He is clearly in better shape than last two years - both in terms of climbing, but also - and most significantly - in terms of his ITT ability. He didn't have to kill himself to win Giro, so if Basso&Riis are smart, he might show up at TdF in the same form, if not better.

If I was Ullrich, I'd be very concerned.

You can defend Ullrich all you want, but facts remain: Ullrich is not a great climber, at least not compared to Basso. Basso is on great form - better form than last year. Ullrich is not in great form - he lost a bunch of training time, didn't finish Giro due to knee/back problems, which to me indicates that he will not be 100% ready for the Tour.

If Basso holds his form, he is in far better form than last year. Will Ullrich be in better form than last year? I doubt it. But Ullrich needs to be in far better form, to make up for difference to Basso last year, and to improvement Basso made since last year. Can he do it over the next 4-6 weeks? I would bet against it.
 

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55x11 said:
Jan is NOT a great climber. He is a great time trialist.

Basso beat Ullrich over the last two TdF only because Ullrich is not a great climber. He would lose time on climbs, try to get some of it back on time trials but will still lose by quite a wide margin.

This year Basso appears to be on a roll. He is clearly in better shape than last two years - both in terms of climbing, but also - and most significantly - in terms of his ITT ability. He didn't have to kill himself to win Giro, so if Basso&Riis are smart, he might show up at TdF in the same form, if not better.

If I was Ullrich, I'd be very concerned.

You can defend Ullrich all you want, but facts remain: Ullrich is not a great climber, at least not compared to Basso. Basso is on great form - better form than last year. Ullrich is not in great form - he lost a bunch of training time, didn't finish Giro due to knee/back problems, which to me indicates that he will not be 100% ready for the Tour.

If Basso holds his form, he is in far better form than last year. Will Ullrich be in better form than last year? I doubt it. But Ullrich needs to be in far better form, to make up for difference to Basso last year, and to improvement Basso made since last year. Can he do it over the next 4-6 weeks? I would bet against it.
What's your definition of a great climber? The guy has beaten folks Pantani, Virenque, Armstrong, Mayo, etc in mountaintop finishes. Is that not good enough?

One can also speculate the Basso's form will not be sustainable. Ullrich could be in better form than last year - you say you doubt Ullrich can be in better form than last year - but he wasn't particularly strong last year. He was 3rd in the TdS in mid-June and in May he was riding races like Volta a Catalunya and didn't win anything in May. He appears to be further along at the same time frame than last year.

We already know you're a huge skeptic of Ullrich - so why not just wait until June's races to make a judgement on his final form?
 

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Bicycling magazine reported basso switched from a 39 to a 36 front ring to support the higher cadence.

I wonder what he is running in the back?




Americano_a_Roma said:
Intersting quote about that from Cyclingnews.com, from Bjarne Riis:


Riis and Basso may not be copying Armstrong's total focus on the Tour de France, but Riis said they have learned from another of the seven-time Tour winner's techniques, the high-cadence pedaling action that allowed him to attack and react quickly in the mountains of the Tour.

"We saw that Armstrong rode small gears and was very agile on the climbs and that uses your muscles differently and allows you to change pace more easily," Riis said. "We know that Jan Ullrich can't do that because he pushes big gears and so we're convinced he'll struggle to stay with Ivan when he accelerates on the climbs in the Tour de France."
 

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TitaniumFemur said:
so why not just wait until June's races to make a judgement on his final form?
It's going to mostly come down to what kind of form these riders and others have in July. They will enter the race as two of the handful of guys with a real shot at winning if their form is good and things go their way.
 

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2004 AdH ITT
1 Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal p/b Berry Floor 39.41 (23.44 km/h)
2 Jan Ullrich (Ger) T-Mobile Team 1.01
3 Andreas Klöden (Ger) T-Mobile Team 1.41
4 Jose Azevedo (Por) US Postal p/b Berry Floor 1.45
5 Santos Gonzalez (Spa) Phonak Hearing Systems 2.11
6 Giuseppe Guerini (Ita) T-Mobile Team
7 Vladimir Karpets (Rus) Illes Balears - Banesto 2.15
8 Ivan Basso (Ita) Team CSC 2.23
9 David Moncoutié (Fra) Cofidis - Le Crédit Par Téléphone
10 Carlos Sastre (Spa) Team CSC 2.27
Granted Basso would be much higher now, however notice #2. Ullrich, 40 seconds up on third place.

The guy can climb if he comes in prepared.
 

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High Cadence climbing uses and recruits

more smaller,more oxygen efficient muscles. thus a rider stays in more of an aerobic state than a masher. when an acceleration occurs the spinner who is in a less anaerobic state has more of a well todraw from whereas the big gear,big muscle masher is already in an anaerobic state and thus has less room to up the ante so to speak. spinning is more efficient on the system and gives the rider a bigger 'rainy day' account of reserves.

Now if we look historically
Basso
Armstrong
Indurain
Gaul
Coppi

all great climbers, all with beautiful spins
 

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This report filed July 19, 2003



Stage 13 Individual Results
1. Carlos Sastre (Sp), CSC, 5:16:08
2. Jan Ullrich (G), Bianchi, 01:01
3. Haimar Zubeldia (Sp), Euskaltel-Euskadi, 01:03
4. Lance Armstrong (USA), U.S. Postal Service, 01:08

If you watch this stage, you will see how Jan can climb.
He needs to dictate the pace more often.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Ullrich needs not to beat Basso in the moutains

Ullrich needs not to beat Basso in the moutains just stay with him.
I believe he can do that, Basso doesn't have the accelerations Lance had, and If Ullrich is on form he only needs to stay with him and win it in the TT.
Contrary to common beliefs, I think Ullrich does have the edge in the tdf
 

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I don't think anyone would argue that Jan Ullrich has never put in a great show of climbing; the question is, can he do that this year? Basso was able to absolutely school "pure climbers" like Simoni and Cunego at the Giro. I think there are 5 Tour stages with either uphill finishes or big climbs near enough the finish to produce time gaps. I think Basso could take AT LEAST a minute out of Jan on each of these. Jan might make some of this up in the ITTs; He looked great in the Giro ITT, but that was a dead-flat course, while the Tour ITTs are more rolling. Of course, Basso's form might decline a bit and Jan's will presumably improve, but in the balance Basso is sufficiently superior in the mountains to offset any advantage Jan has in the TTs. IMHO.
 

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Basso put like 180 seconds into "neck wound" Ullrich on last years 6(?) stages of climbing. Ullrich grabbed 20 seconds in 50K at the Giro without really winding himself and while being on the steeply ascending portion of the form curve. Guessing JU gains second per Km on Basso this year if Basso can't stomp JU on the ADH and Les Syllabes(?) it will be painfully close.
Given Basso's stupendous form he still needs at least a 6% grade to put the hurt on JU. IMHO of course.
 

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zigare said:
Jan is not a good climber but sure I think his focus is on Le Tour
Let me guess, you've been following pro cycling for what 3 years. Take a look at results from the last 9 yeras. He's arguably one of the best climbers during that period. He put a minute into Marco Pantani (do you know who that is) on stage 10 during the 97 tour on the final climb to Arcalis
 

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55x11 said:
Jan is NOT a great climber. He is a great time trialist.

Basso beat Ullrich over the last two TdF only because Ullrich is not a great climber. He would lose time on climbs, try to get some of it back on time trials but will still lose by quite a wide margin.

This year Basso appears to be on a roll. He is clearly in better shape than last two years - both in terms of climbing, but also - and most significantly - in terms of his ITT ability. He didn't have to kill himself to win Giro, so if Basso&Riis are smart, he might show up at TdF in the same form, if not better.

If I was Ullrich, I'd be very concerned.

You can defend Ullrich all you want, but facts remain: Ullrich is not a great climber, at least not compared to Basso. Basso is on great form - better form than last year. Ullrich is not in great form - he lost a bunch of training time, didn't finish Giro due to knee/back problems, which to me indicates that he will not be 100% ready for the Tour.

If Basso holds his form, he is in far better form than last year. Will Ullrich be in better form than last year? I doubt it. But Ullrich needs to be in far better form, to make up for difference to Basso last year, and to improvement Basso made since last year. Can he do it over the next 4-6 weeks? I would bet against it.
In the month you have been hear I would bet at least 100 of you 109 posts are bashing Jan.It is obvious that your dislike for him and your love for Basso is skewing your opinion.

Jan is a damn good climber.Here,let me repeat that;JAN IS A GOOD CLIMBER.

Despite what you WANT to believe,the fact still remains Jan has done weel against the best of them.There are a few of the many examples of Jans ability to climb in this thread.

Before you start getting all worked up,I'm not the president of the jan fan club.However,it is rediculous to sit here and read statements like yours when the facts prove other wise.Is Jan a great ITT'ist?Absolutely but that is far from all he can do.

I'm not going to bench race with you or ramble like you have about Ullrichs forms Vs Basso's,This year Vs last year etc.That will all be decided on the road in July.I will,however,say this;If you are basing how Ullrich will perform in the TDF on how he has done this year and in the Giro in particular you havn't a clue what you are taling about.

The past has shown that what happens in July is what matters.Armstrong would get his a s s handed to him all season all the way up until 3 weeks before the TDF then go on to dominate the Tour.
 
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