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Posted on Velo News' web site.
http://www.velonews.com/tech/report/articles/9662.0.html
Remember, I'm just the messenger.

Column in full:

Technical Q&A with Lennard Zinn: The great rotating-weight debate
By Lennard Zinn
VeloNews technical writer
This report filed March 28, 2006
Dear readers,
Back at Christmas, I threw in a letter from a reader claiming that rotating weight makes almost no difference on a wheel - that it takes negligible energy to bring it up to speed, and that the only thing that really matters when climbing is the overall weight of the bike, not how it's distributed. Since then, I have gotten a lot of mail about this, and a trip to France last week piqued my interest in this subject again.

Perhaps some of you remember when I did a test in VeloNews seven years ago (in the 6/28/99 issue) of wheel inertia by building a rotational pendulum in my garage.

From twisting the rod running down through the hub with the wheel fixed from rotating relative to the rod, I measured the period of the back-and-forth twisting oscillations and from it deduced relative wheel rotational inertia. I was just at a Mavic tech seminar in Annecy, France, last week and saw a test machine set up virtually the same in the Mavic test lab (although it has a digital counter, rather than a guy with a stopwatch!). Having seen firsthand from both of these setups that the period changes significantly with added weight out at the rim, particularly with adding a thicker inner tube or a larger-diameter and/or heavier tire, I know that the extra energy required to accelerate additional rotating weight, whether it is in the shoes and pedals or in the rim and tire is not zero. I also know that very few people (probably none, actually) climb smoothly, without accelerating the wheel (and pedals and bike) each time a foot pushes down and decelerating it each time it goes across the top or bottom, particularly when climbing out of the saddle. This of course is more extreme in the case of accelerating out of corners in a criterium, but then you do not have the additional energy required of carrying the entire weight up a climb. And you probably know that Ondrej Sosenka believes that higher rotational inertia to maintain momentum through the dead spots is an advantage on steady efforts on the track, since he used super heavy rims when he broke the hour record last year.

Tom Compton's site also has some interesting calculator pages on subjects like this. Be sure to click on the TOOL KIT button to change to different scenarios, like criterium cornering, sprinting, etc. (More than just an übergeek, Tom is also the father of cyclo-cross champion Katie Compton)


Finally, here is a small sampling of the letters I received on the subject:
Dear Lennard,
In your 12/27 column, Peter's "you can accelerate a wheel to climbing speed with your finger, therefore it's insignificant" statement was enough to push me off the dime.
It's obvious if two equal masses are both traveling (translating) at the same velocity, but only one is rotating, then the one that is rotating holds more kinetic energy than the one that isn't. That energy comes from only one place, the rider, and here are the numbers.

I mathematically "built" a wheel from Dura Ace 10 speed hubs, 32 DT Competition (2/1.8/2) spokes, Mavic Open Pro rims, and Michelin tires and tubes from weights taken from weightweenies.com. I did it both with brass spoke nipples, and with alloy nipples, for a savings in weight at the rim of about 20 grams per wheel. Next I made some simplifying geometric assumptions, and calculated polar moment of inertia for each component including rims, tires, tubes, spokes, nipples, hubs, and cassette. With both linear inertia (mass) and polar moment of inertia in hand, I looked at accelerating from 20 mph to 30 mph over a period of 10 seconds.

Power for this acceleration falls out as follows:

Using Brass-nippled wheels

Linear term (the same whether the mass is rotation or not, i.e. frame or wheels): 210 w
Rotating term (relevant to wheels only):115.5 w
Total power: 325.5
Note that ~35% of the kinetic energy stored by this acceleration wentinto rotation.
Using Alloy-nippled wheels:

Linear term: 206.6 w
Rotating term: 112.6 w
Total power: 319.2 w
Switching to alloy nipples (20 grams per wheel saved) saved me 6.3 watts total to perform this acceleration. If I shaved the same amount of mass off my frame instead, I would enjoy only the savings from the linear term, or 3.4 watts.
Everybody gets to decide for themselves whether 3 watts is "significant" or not, but I wouldn't at all be surprised if the human engine is sensitive enough to feel the difference.
Eric

To Peter,
Your analysis of rotational inertia neglects the simple fact that bikes are human-powered. Biomechanical forces being what they are, your conclusion errs by a factor of 10,000 or so.

Try pedaling with one leg sometime. You will find yourself lurching forward on the down stroke then drastically slowing as you spastically struggle to get the crank back in position for round two. Of course using two legs and good cycling form helps matters, but only to a certain extent.

The lesson is that all cyclists apply effective power to the drive train in pulses - the emphasis being n "effective". Only the component of force that is perpendicular to the crank at any instant contributes to forward motion. Therefore the right pedal mostly applies effective force between 90 and 180 degrees whereas the left pedal is doing the same mainly between 270 and 360 degrees. The blue line below illustrates the general shape of effective force vs. crank angle for a single pedal. To get the combined force of both pedals in general you can add another copy of the curve shifted by 180 degrees. The end result is that you put TWO discrete pulses of useful force into the drive train every revolution.
For a nice explanation of pedal forces see this site.






By the way, the well understood dead spots in pedal stroke account for all manner of crank contraptions such as BioPace, Rotor, O'Symetric, etc., which aim to diminish the effect or alternately exaggerate it (but that's another topic entirely).

As you may have extra time to recall while propelling your heavy wheels uphill, F=M x A. Assuming rotating mass to be constant we can deduce that the acceleration curve is identical to the effective force curve (only with different units). More interesting perhaps is the plot of instantaneous velocity vs. time, which we obtain by integrating the acceleration curve. Integrating reveals the red curve above, which is roughly sinusoidal with one positive pulse per cycle (two pulses when accounting for both pedals). In this case it's easy to see that the constant term or offset simply represents the average angular velocity. We now have a periodic function that describes a crank that is rotating at a variable speed. In more simplistic terms - when you stomp the pedal the bike goes faster, when you don't it slows down. As an example, you may be moving up the hill at an average rate of 10 MPH but in reality you could be varying from 9-11 MPH through each revolution.

"So what?" you might ask. Well Peter, the bottom line is that you are accelerating your wheels twice per revolution and that can add up to some serious effort. Not just one measly finger flick as you commence your ride as you once opined. So how far has your analysis strayed? Well for starters it's really two wheels you have to accelerate (2X). Then twice per revolution (2X). Let's see - 80 RPM if you're doing good or suffer an unsightly triple chain ring (80X). And there's still 60 minutes/hour even at such a high elevations (60X). Then I know I personally optimized my rig to get me through a 3-hour climb in the Appalachians - that's another factor of three (3X). So that's 2x2 x80 x60 x3 = 57,600 flicks of the finger per 3-hour ride. But then we must consider that instead of accelerating the wheel to 10 MPH we're really accelerating it by, say, 2 MPH (from 9 - 11 MPH per our example). That's a factor of 5 or back in your favor. So then we have 57,600 divided by 5... amongst friends let's just call it a nice round factor of 10,000.

So how could we interpret this whopping discrepancy? Well, instead of flicking your deliberately dense 3-pound wheel/tire combo, picture yourself spinning a 15-ton wheel up to speed! Still can't picture it? Thirty thousand pounds is roughly the weight of three and a half Hummer H2's (8500 lbs GVW). Allowing some margin for rolling resistance I surmise that the effort spent accelerating your heavy wheels over the course of a 3-hour mountain ride is akin to the effort required to tow three Hummers up to 10 MPH! But don't worry though, from what I read somewhere, after you get them up to speed, it doesn't take much effort.

Still don't believe me? Try another experiment. Ride up your favorite mountain pass with a pound of fishing weights in your jersey pocket. Then do it again with the weights mounted out on the spoke nipples. You won't need a stopwatch to figure out how much the second configuration sucks.

Now do you see why folks plunk down $5000 to ride easily destroyed carbon wheels? My own crusade against rotational inertia motivated me to re-appropriate a discontinued 650c tri-bike for climbing purposes. I find the combined effect of wheel/tire weight savings and reduced moment of inertia (related to radius ^2) save an entire Hummer's worth of effort over my mountain course of choice.
David
 

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olddog said:
So what?" you might ask. Well Peter, the bottom line is that you are accelerating your wheels twice per revolution and that can add up to some serious effort.
This has been discussed on all the other forums... and I'll summarize by saying he is completely wrong. The major conceptual error he makes is forgetting that added inertia *reduces* the speed fluctuations... meaning that you don't have to accelerate as much because you didn't decelerate as much. In fact the inertial effect of heavy wheels is very slightly beneficial on a steep climb. Of course you'd rather not be carrying extra weight... but if you have to it might as well be on your wheels.
 

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Response to Zinn's article

rruff said:
This has been discussed on all the other forums... and I'll summarize by saying he is completely wrong. The major conceptual error he makes is forgetting that added inertia *reduces* the speed fluctuations... meaning that you don't have to accelerate as much because you didn't decelerate as much. In fact the inertial effect of heavy wheels is very slightly beneficial on a steep climb. Of course you'd rather not be carrying extra weight... but if you have to it might as well be on your wheels.
I've sent an email to Zinn to explain the errors in this article. Partially to Zinn's defense, the errors were in letters written to him that her re-printed, but he really should double checked their validity before re-printing them. I'll report if I get a response from Zinn.

In addition to the letter that ignores that the extra energy to accelerate heavier wheels just results in smaller speed fluctuations, the other letter makes a bogus claim that the 20 grams of brass nipples vs. aluminum nipples requires 3.4 W to accelerate from 20 to 30 mph. In reality, it only takes about 0.2 W extra.
 

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Mark McM said:
I've sent an email to Zinn to explain the errors in this article. Partially to Zinn's defense, the errors were in letters written to him that her re-printed, but he really should double checked their validity before re-printing them. I'll report if I get a response from Zinn.

In addition to the letter that ignores that the extra energy to accelerate heavier wheels just results in smaller speed fluctuations, the other letter makes a bogus claim that the 20 grams of brass nipples vs. aluminum nipples requires 3.4 W to accelerate from 20 to 30 mph. In reality, it only takes about 0.2 W extra.
I liked the guy that apparently were fluctuation with 2MPH through one pedal revolution with a cadence of 80. Has to be a pretty steep climb....
 

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den bakker said:
I liked the guy that apparently were fluctuation with 2MPH through one pedal revolution with a cadence of 80. Has to be a pretty steep climb....
Is it that English is my second language, or is your grammar a tad funky. :confused:
 

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rogger said:
Is it that English is my second language, or is your grammar a tad funky. :confused:
funky grammar sorry.
One of the letters used speed variations of 2MPH on a climb due to uneven pedalling to "prove" his point. He then assumed the rider had a cadance of 80RPM. I simply had a hard time to see how both things could be true at the same time.
 

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den bakker said:
funky grammar sorry.
One of the letters used speed variations of 2MPH on a climb due to uneven pedalling to "prove" his point. He then assumed the rider had a cadance of 80RPM. I simply had a hard time to see how both things could be true at the same time.

I'd think the variations wouldn't even be .1 mph but that's just a SWAG.
 

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Thanks for responding to that

Mark McM said:
I've sent an email to Zinn to explain the errors in this article. Partially to Zinn's defense, the errors were in letters written to him that her re-printed, but he really should double checked their validity before re-printing them. I'll report if I get a response from Zinn.

In addition to the letter that ignores that the extra energy to accelerate heavier wheels just results in smaller speed fluctuations, the other letter makes a bogus claim that the 20 grams of brass nipples vs. aluminum nipples requires 3.4 W to accelerate from 20 to 30 mph. In reality, it only takes about 0.2 W extra.
I was running some numbers of my own, and couldn't figure out how the hell that second guy got the numbers he calculated. 3-5 watts is significant, and anecdotaly I've never felt any difference that profound when riding wheelsets having differences of 3-400 grams in total mass on similar climbs.

The ignorance of basic physical principles always drives me up the wall. The first letter explained wheel acceleration as if it was some sort of "ratcheting" effect, which ignores the effects of decelerations as you pointed out. Idiots. Sorry, there's no free lunch, physics is all about conservations and you're not going miraculously cheat any of it with a bicycle wheel.

Post your letter (and Zinn's response) if/when he responds.
 

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Mark McM said:
I've sent an email to Zinn to explain the errors in this article. Partially to Zinn's defense, the errors were in letters written to him that her re-printed, but he really should double checked their validity before re-printing them.
Actually good marketing by Zinn... I can't believe how much discussion this has generated on all the forums...
 

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Apparently whomever "David" is needs some serious education in basic physics. Does that funny notion called the Conservation of Energy ring a bell David? Nothing worse than incorrect applications of basic scientific principles being masqueraded by the unknowing as scientific data.

Maybe someone should race David up his favorite mountain pass on 1600 gram clincher wheels while David is on his 1000 gram Lightweights. As a handicap David can first pull three Humvees up to speed with a rope like they do in the strongest man competitions and then he can get on his bike with Lightweights and try to run down the guy with the 1600 gram clinchers. Afterall, he's saving the strength necessary to accelerate three Humvees with his light carbon wheels according to him so he should have no problem catching a similiarly talanted and fit rider by the peak. I'd pay to sit at that peak and watch that fiasco by David.
 

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rocco said:
I'd think the variations wouldn't even be .1 mph but that's just a SWAG.
From my computrainer display, which shows in 1/10 of a second, on > 8% climbs it's not at all uncommon to get 1.5-2.0 kph fluctuations. Though that's with more like 50-70 cadence (I intentionally overgear on the trainer just to keep strength in the winter).

But that doesn't alter the physics of the situation and makes the reacceleration more of an aerodynamic problem, so lighter wheels would actually be very slightly slower than heavy ones with total bike/rider weight held constant.
 

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interesting

terzo rene said:
From my computrainer display, which shows in 1/10 of a second, on > 8% climbs it's not at all uncommon to get 1.5-2.0 kph fluctuations. Though that's with more like 50-70 cadence (I intentionally overgear on the trainer just to keep strength in the winter).

But that doesn't alter the physics of the situation and makes the reacceleration more of an aerodynamic problem, so lighter wheels would actually be very slightly slower than heavy ones with total bike/rider weight held constant.
That's interesting but the virtual scenario has the rider turning over the cranks at a cadence of 80 rpm which is not even in the same neighborhood as 50 or 60 and long stroll from 70. The lower the cadence the more pulsed ones power output would be especially at 50 rpm. Could you let us know what happens at 80 rpms on 5% and 10% climbs? Not to be harshly dismissive but who spends much time at a cadence below 80 anyway? ...Oh I know, those guys who're going to tip over on the Koppenberg tommorow. :)

I know this has been posted already but I can't help but put the HED Stalingrad wheels here.
 

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rocco said:
I know this has been posted already but I can't but put the HED Stalingrad wheels here.
Do you remember that these wheels have to be used with real-man saddle only (manufactured by Sheldon Brown)?
 

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rocco said:
That's interesting but the virtual scenario has the rider turning over the cranks at a cadence of 80 rpm which is not even in the same neighborhood as 50 or 60 and long stroll from 70. The lower the cadence the more pulsed ones power output would be especially at 50 rpm. Could you let us know what happens at 80 rpms on 5% and 10% climbs? Not to be harshly dismissive but who spends much time at a cadence below 80 anyway? ...Oh I know, those guys who're going to tip over on the Koppenberg tommorow. :)

I know this has been posted already but I can't but put the HED Stalingrad wheels here.
Eggzactly. When I think about hills and a 50 rpm cadence, my knees start to hurt. People need to repeat this until it is burned into their cerebral cortex: "Spinning is good. Spinning is good. Spinning is good, but Milla Jovovavich is better."

I hear the Raybestos pads that come w/ those wheels are the nads when it comes to stopping.
 

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al0 said:
Do you remember that these wheels have to be used with real-man saddle only (manufactured by Sheldon Brown)?

That pet rock might actually be comfortable on a hot day.
 

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Yes but Milla spinning would be the best.

alienator said:
Eggzactly. When I think about hills and a 50 rpm cadence, my knees start to hurt. People need to repeat this until it is burned into their cerebral cortex: "Spinning is good. Spinning is good. Spinning is good, but Milla Jovovavich is better."

I hear the Raybestos pads that come w/ those wheels are the nads when it comes to stopping.


It hurts to see folks, mostly leisure riders, grinding up grades like that. I always want to yell "shift to an easier gear and pedal faster" but then I never bother.
 

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Anti-gravity said:
I was running some numbers of my own, and couldn't figure out how the hell that second guy got the numbers he calculated. 3-5 watts is significant, and anecdotaly I've never felt any difference that profound when riding wheelsets having differences of 3-400 grams in total mass on similar climbs.
Anecdotally, I HAVE felt the difference between heavy aero rims/wheels and lighter rims/wheels at speed. (30-ish mph)

Uphill it really don't matter what I ride, I'm still going slow!

Other than this one brief foray into the religious argument, I'll leave y'all to yer debate.

M
 

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rocco said:
It hurts to see folks, mostly leisure riders, grinding up grades like that. I always want to yell "shift to an easier gear and pedal faster" but then I never bother.
Speaking of Milla, there has to be a place in cycling for Milla and pelvic thrusts, right?
 
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