[DMFT]

Anyone think much has changed???
6 Hour race while it's 40 degrees with all the punishment of the cobles.
27mph average.

I know it's a pretty flat course BUT really???

 

[Wookiebiker]

As with all things sports related (especially cycling) ... nothing has changed, they've just got better at hiding it. When I heard them announce the average speed after Cancellara won, I thought the same thing.

I'm sure somebody will, at some point, try and defend how much cleaner cycling is now and how it's harder to use PED's ... but seriously, those speeds are insanely fast.

Granted, I'm very, very far away from being a Pro ... but I know how hard it is to do a TT at those speeds for 30 minutes on a pancake flat course, in full gear, TT bike, etc. ... then to do it for 6+ hours on regular road bikes with wider than normal tires, in jersey and shorts over 40+ miles of cobbles with wind from multiple directions ... and they want me to believe they are clean? Give me a break!!!

I will say this though ... it's pretty entertaining, which is what I'm looking for when I watch professional cycling. I like to see super human performances and don't really care much what they are doing to their bodies.

 

[Local Hero]

They should drug test Vanmarcke for pulling through so many times, especially *after* Cancellara attacked him. That kid must have been stoned.

Paris - Roubaix 2013 - Final Km's [ENG]- Compiègne ? Roubaix - YouTube

 

[JackDaniels]

Cancellara averages around 290 watts for these races. It's great, but it's not superhuman or evidence of PED use.

 

[Wookiebiker]

Cancellara averages around 290 watts for these races. It's great, but it's not superhuman or evidence of PED use.

290 watts for "6+ Hours" ... doesn't raise questions? Seriously?

Those number may also be a little low given the length of the cobble sections in Roubaix ... going over those sections tends to lower your power output, if you ever raced a cross race/dirt crit with power you would know what I'm talking about.

 

[den bakker]

290 watts for "6+ Hours" ... doesn't raise questions? Seriously?

Those number may also be a little low given the length of the cobble sections in Roubaix ... going over those sections tends to lower your power output, if you ever raced a cross race/dirt crit with power you would know what I'm talking about.

what are the wookie approved maximum wattage numbers allowed to be clean?

 

[Wookiebiker]

what are the wookie approved maximum wattage numbers allowed to be clean?

There is no "Maximum" amount ... but there are "Believable" amounts.

Given the "Long" history of doping in cycling, the lack of drop in speed from races, the continued hard attacks, the "Claim" that doping stopped in 2006 and on and on ... Yet, people want to give somewhat dubious speeds and power numbers a pass? Seriously?

As they old saying goes ... There is a sucker born every minute!

Same goes for ... You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.

At some point, people will figure out doping is still going on in the peloton, the speeds are still ridiculously fast and it likely will never end.

A question for you den baker ... Do you seriously believe that 27 mph average for 6+ hours over 40+ miles of cobble stones and averaging 290+ watts is believably clean?

 

[den bakker]

There is no "Maximum" amount ... but there are "Believable" amounts.

Given the "Long" history of doping in cycling, the lack of drop in speed from races, the continued hard attacks, the "Claim" that doping stopped in 2006 and on and on ... Yet, people want to give somewhat dubious speeds and power numbers a pass? Seriously?

As they old saying goes ... There is a sucker born every minute!

Same goes for ... You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.

At some point, people will figure out doping is still going on in the peloton, the speeds are still ridiculously fast and it likely will never end.

A question for you den baker ... Do you seriously believe that 27 mph average for 6+ hours over 40+ miles of cobble stones and averaging 290+ watts is believably clean?

I don't know, I'm not the one claiming to be able to distinguish. you are.
what are "Believable" amounts? 280? 270? 170? 5?

 

[jsedlak]

290 watts for "6+ Hours" ... doesn't raise questions? Seriously?

Those number may also be a little low given the length of the cobble sections in Roubaix ... going over those sections tends to lower your power output, if you ever raced a cross race/dirt crit with power you would know what I'm talking about.

290 watts for 6 hours really isn't anything superhuman for a pro. What raises questions, IMHO, is the 30+ mph speeds after 5.5 hours of racing. The "500 watts for 40 minutes" after racing for so long is absurd to me.

 

[Wookiebiker]

I don't know, I'm not the one claiming to be able to distinguish. you are.
what are "Believable" amounts? 280? 270? 170? 5?

Part of the problem is that we may never really know due to the prevalence of PED use over the history of cycling and Cancellara was strong through the 2000's during heavy, team sponsored doping.

He hasn't slowed down since that time, despite the fact he's getting older.

So ... either he's super human or was using and still is. When confronted with the plausible and implausible ... you go with the plausible version of events.

If not for the cobbles, I'd be more inclined to believe the 290 watts over 6+ hours of racing, but the beating you take over those and to continue and actually speed up at the end of the race isn't believable. As jsedlak stated ... putting out the watts he and other pro's do at the end of races is truly unbelievable.

What is believable? Good question (and the number will change from rider to rider) ... and one that I can't really answer. However, I can say that 290+ watts over 6+ hours of racing and cobble stones isn't ... at least not to me.

Again ... speeds since the times we "KNOW" riders were heavily doping are not really dropping, at least not as far as one would expect. Why would anybody want me to believe they are clean now? Cleaner ... maybe, but not clean.

 

[den bakker]

Part of the problem is that we may never really know due to the prevalence of PED use over the history of cycling and Cancellara was strong through the 2000's during heavy, team sponsored doping.

He hasn't slowed down since that time, despite the fact he's getting older.

So ... either he's super human or was using and still is. When confronted with the plausible and implausible ... you go with the plausible version of events.

If not for the cobbles, I'd be more inclined to believe the 290 watts over 6+ hours of racing, but the beating you take over those and to continue and actually speed up at the end of the race isn't believable. As jsedlak stated ... putting out the watts he and other pro's do at the end of races is truly unbelievable.

What is believable? Good question (and the number will change from rider to rider) ... and one that I can't really answer. However, I can say that 290+ watts over 6+ hours of racing and cobble stones isn't ... at least not to me.

Again ... speeds since the times we "KNOW" riders were heavily doping are not really dropping, at least not as far as one would expect. Why would anybody want me to believe they are clean now? Cleaner ... maybe, but not clean.

when you say he has not slowed down, could you provide the wattage from the last 10 years or so from him? as I'm sure you are aware, as an accomplished and seasoned racer, average speed does not mean much.

 

[Wookiebiker]

when you say he has not slowed down, could you provide the wattage from the last 10 years or so from him? as I'm sure you are aware, as an accomplished and seasoned racer, average speed does not mean much.

You as well as everybody else knows ... there is no power data available since they won't release that information. Even if they did, there would be questions of data manipulation. They don't want that information getting out to their competition or the general public for that matter ... which is why you only see data from low/middle level domestiques.

As for average speeds ... it doesn't mean much on a one race basis, but when you start taking the average speeds over many races and compare them, they haven't slowed down much.

Just look at the TDF ... you can take the average speeds from that and draw comparisons due to them taking place over 3 weeks. You get more data points to average and the reality is they are going as fast as they were during the "EPO Era" ... or just a minor amount slower ... but faster than they did in the "Pre EPO Era".

 

[den bakker]

You as well as everybody else knows ... there is no power data available since they won't release that information. Even if they did, there would be questions of data manipulation. They don't want that information getting out to their competition or the general public for that matter ... which is why you only see data from low/middle level domestiques.

As for average speeds ... it doesn't mean much on a one race basis, but when you start taking the average speeds over many races and compare them, they haven't slowed down much.

Just look at the TDF ... you can take the average speeds from that and draw comparisons due to them taking place over 3 weeks. You get more data points to average and the reality is they are going as fast as they were during the "EPO Era" ... or just a minor amount slower ... but faster than they did in the "Pre EPO Era".

no you cannot take the average speed of two different routes and compare them. just one trivial example going clock or counter clock wise makes a difference. or just whether the pack scratch their @ss while a break goes 30 minutes up the road or not.
but we get it. nothing really to back it up. I'm not saying cycling is more or less dirty, just saying there's no substance is the posts here.

as for data manipulation, that would have to be done rather carefully to ensure no inconsistency when you compare two riders, especially if steep climbs are involved. and if they are faked, why release numbers that don't conform to the wookie clean threshold?

 

[regnaD kciN]

Is Fabio using? Well, considering he didn't exactly blow the wheels off the rest of the peloton à la Armstrong, it's probably safe to say "no more so than any of the other top-five finishers.

We probably need to be honest with ourselves and admit that, until there's a reliable test for EPO, anti-doping efforts are going to be mainly window-dressing, or at least honored more in the breach than the observance. Sadly, otherwise, I'd guess that the only thing that might cause teams and their riders to get serious about eliminating doping would be, God forbid, if a really prominent rider, one of the top names in the world, was to die suddenly from the effects of PEDs...and possibly it might take more than one to do it.

 

[kbiker3111]

290 watts for "6+ Hours" ... doesn't raise questions? Seriously?

Those number may also be a little low given the length of the cobble sections in Roubaix ... going over those sections tends to lower your power output, if you ever raced a cross race/dirt crit with power you would know what I'm talking about.

Errr, 290 is smack in the middle of z2 for a 175# world TT champ

 

[Wookiebiker]

Errr, 290 is smack in the middle of z2 for a 175# world TT champ

This is of course ... assuming he's averaging 290 watts for the race. We are going off the assumption that "Jackdaniels" stated in an above thread where he said "Cancellara averages around 290 watts for these races." so all of this is based off of a forum users quote ... not actual numbers.

To average 27 mph, it takes a bit more power than 290 watts ... granted he drafted a fair amount of the race, but then you have to look at the power they put out for the last hour of the race as was stated by "jsedlak". Then factor in the cobbles and the amount of energy that takes out of you ... and well, the speeds are quite suspect.

Without real power number ... real weights ... wind directions ... etc. it's all a guessing game. However we do know he averaged just a bit over 27 mph over 157.5 miles (32.5 miles of cobble sections) and 6+ hours of racing.

As for doping in general ... looking at the average speeds of the TDF ... They are still, and have been since doping "Officially" ended in 2006, averaging over 1+ kph faster over the course of the race than during the height of the EPO era in the 1990's when they had "Zero" tests to detect EPO and it was rampant in the peloton (likely still is).

 

[fezi]

If not for the cobbles, I'd be more inclined to believe the 290 watts over 6+ hours of racing, but the beating you take over those and to continue and actually speed up at the end of the race isn't believable. As jsedlak stated ... putting out the watts he and other pro's do at the end of races is truly unbelievable.

What is believable? Good question (and the number will change from rider to rider) ... and one that I can't really answer. However, I can say that 290+ watts over 6+ hours of racing and cobble stones isn't ... at least not to me.

290 watts is easily achievable for that length of time. I'm just a normal cyclist, full time job, been training with power for 5 years, similar weight to Fabian and quite easily average those numbers for rides up to 5 hours. Now for a professional rider to do those numbers when fresh is hardly unbelievable. I doubt he averaged 500 watts for 40 minutes though in the final hour. I'd hazard a guess and say his best number's were in the last 40 minutes but somewhere closer to 400. Judging by his collapse after the finish I'd say his tank was pretty well empty. Drug free? I'd like to think so. Achievable performance drug free? for sure.

 

[Undecided]

However we do know he averaged just a bit over 27 mph over 157.5 miles (32.5 miles of cobble sections) and 6+ hours of racing.

I'm not saying there's no doping, but I don't think this is as suggestive as you do.

Look back even into the 1940s at some of the speeds. Paris - Roubaix 2013: Past Winners & Race History | Cyclingnews.com

Look at the speed of a relatively long, flat road race with a good P/1/2 field. http://www.topsportcycling.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Pro-1-2-Men-Stage-4.pdf

 

[spade2you]

what are the wookie approved maximum wattage numbers allowed to be clean?

Yeah, real classy, wookie.

 

[Local Hero]

To average 27 mph, it takes a bit more power than 290 watts ... granted he drafted a fair amount of the race

There is plenty of draft. On cobbles bulky media motocycles are often within a few bike lengths of the race leader. Dave Zabriskie said something along the lines of, "Being on the front is easier, you get to draft the motos!"

Why would anybody want me to believe they are clean now?

Convincing wookiebiker cannot be the standard for discussion.