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· Unsafe at Any Speed
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I fitted a Shimano Ultegra 10 speed cluster to what turned out to be an old 9 speed hub.


The 9 speed freewheel splines are shallower. For the 10 speed steel cogs, this is no issue. They fit the 9 speed spline just as well as 9 speed cogs on a 9 speed spline.

The aluminum boss ( 3 largest cogs) however is a concern, the splines mesh maybe 0.5 or 1 mm only and feel very loose.

I seem to recall most current wheelsets don't show very deep splines either, but probably deeper than a real Shimano 9 speed.

Is this 10 - on - 9 speed running done successfully / sanctioned / allowed or not?

Thanks for your help...
 

· Unsafe at Any Speed
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Discussion Starter · #2 · (Edited)
Apparently...

I see even the latest Dura-Ace wheels are 9-speed compatible. At least, that is to say, the splines are shallow enough to accommodate 9-speed sprockets.

This means a 10 speed cassette sits with only the edges of the aluminum splines of the sprocket boss engaged.

I slipped an Ultegra 10 speed cassette onto the DA wheel and felt the looseness.

Apparently it is OK - there are 9 driving faces. But I still feels it's marginal. And surely the DA wheel splines are aluminum or titanium. The smaller steel sprockets can trash the shallow splines.

Shimano should have used deeper splines at the outset when they designed the hyperglide cassette. They probably did not anticipate aluminum splines and ditto bosses running a 27 tooth rear on a compact crankset and a heavy rider standing on the pedals::eek:
 

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correct...

The shallow Shimano spline was never intended to be used with aluminum as the body material, so they changed it with the 7800 series hub, using deeper splines, like Campy along with a total redesign of the internals. After four years, they decided that the change wasn't such a hot idea, and went back to the old design, but using Ti for the cassette body to save weight. After two attempts, they finally got a hub that's as light as Campy's 1999 model.
 

· NeoRetroGrouch
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C-40 said:
The shallow Shimano spline was never intended to be used with aluminum as the body material, so they changed it with the 7800 series hub, using deeper splines, like Campy along with a total redesign of the internals. After four years, they decided that the change wasn't such a hot idea, and went back to the old design, but using Ti for the cassette body to save weight. After two attempts, they finally got a hub that's as light as Campy's 1999 model.
"The shallow Shimano spline was never intended to be used with aluminum as the body material..."??? They made shallow splined aluminum freehub bodies for several years (7700 series). They found that the steel cogs gouged into the aluminum and were sometimes harder to get off. No real functional problem.

"After two attempts, they finally got a hub that's as light as Campy's 1999 model." And why is this relevant?

TF
 

· Banned forever.....or not
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"Is this 10 - on - 9 speed running done successfully / sanctioned / allowed or not?"

Of course it is.
I run Ultegra 10 speed cassettes on 7700 hubs, 7400 hubs, 6400 hubs, and 6500 hubs. You just have to remember to use the supplied 1mm spacer under the cassette.
(except for the "junior gear cassettes")
 

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???

TurboTurtle said:
"The shallow Shimano spline was never intended to be used with aluminum as the body material..."??? They made shallow splined aluminum freehub bodies for several years (7700 series). They found that the steel cogs gouged into the aluminum and were sometimes harder to get off. No real functional problem.

"After two attempts, they finally got a hub that's as light as Campy's 1999 model." And why is this relevant?

TF
You don't call gouged splines that foul up the cog timing a function problem? Shimano may have made some Al bodies, but they quit doing it didn't they? Learned the hard way that Al was not appropriate for such shallow splines.

There's always been a race for the lightest weight between the brands. That's one reason why Shimano made the major change in the 7800 hub, but it was still heavier than the competition. Seems like they finally got it right with the 7850, but the price ended up a lot higher than Record. Usually Shimano individual parts are cheaper. Oh yes, it still weighs about 30 grams more than Record.

I believe that the 7900 hub has further improvements to permit bearing adjustment with the wheels clamped in the bike (which Campy also had in 1999). Correct me if I'm wrong. Shimano's hub instructions at their website don't even mention bearing adjustment.
 

· NeoRetroGrouch
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MR_GRUMPY said:
"Is this 10 - on - 9 speed running done successfully / sanctioned / allowed or not?"

Of course it is.
I run Ultegra 10 speed cassettes on 7700 hubs, 7400 hubs, 6400 hubs, and 6500 hubs. You just have to remember to use the supplied 1mm spacer under the cassette.
(except for the "junior gear cassettes")
Grump,

I think you use a 13-x (junior) 10-speed, right? Are they really wider than the non-juniors? Or is it just that the chain would hit the stays on many bikes with the 13+ small cog if you used a spacer?

TF
 

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Yes, I use a 13-25 10 speed cassette on the wheel that I use for "Normal" training. The cassette is 1mm wider than "non-junior" cassettes, so no spacer is needed. They will not fit on the 7800 large spline hubs, but will fit the 7850 hub.
I like them because I can stay in the big ring for almost everything. I find that I can spin them up to about 38 mph before I have to let gravity take over.
 
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