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Discussion Starter · #41 · (Edited)
Good luck with that.
Not sure what else mech group devotees are supposed to do (aside from adamantly refusing to buy e-shifting components/bikes, a course which they were probably following already).

Judging from Velodog’s article, it seems Shimano has firmly placed its finger in the wind as to what to do next… it’s likely that customer feedback will help decide which of the following Shimano will release to fill the huge price gap between Ultegra Di2 and 11-spd mech 105:

1. 105 Di2
2. Ultegra mech
3. Both

Not to mention whether 105 mech gets updated to 12-spd, or dies at 11.

So, why not pipe up and say something? It costs nothing. 🤷‍♂️

And it may help avoid a possible world where Tiagra will soon be Shimano’s top mech group. 😳
 
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Not sure what else mech group devotees are supposed to do.

Judging from velodog’s article, Shimano has firmly placed its finger in the wind on what to do next, it seems… it’s likely that customer feedback will help decide which of the following Shimano will release to fill the huge price gap between Ultegra Di2 and 11-spd mech 105:

1. 105 Di2
2. Ultegra mech
3. Both

Not to mention whether 105 mech gets updated to 12-spd, or dies at 11.

So, why not pipe up and say something? It costs nothing. 🤷‍♂️

And it may help avoid a possible world where Tiagra will soon be Shimano’s top mech group. 😳
EXACTLY!!
 

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Did you read that article? It says that it will make only 105 as their top of the line mechanical components. Mechanical Ultegra will seize to exist after 2022 maybe 2023. Which means that if 105 will be the top of the line mechanical groupset it will no longer take advantage of trickle down technology from DA and Ultegra. And I have a sneaky thought that eventually 105 mechanical will go electric and they'll stop 105 mechanical as well leaving us with Tiagra.

We need to be very vocal to Shamano about their plans to eliminate mechanical DA and Ultegra, if they get enough E-mails telling them to keep the mechanical DA and Ultegra stuff they could change their minds. But as far as I'm concern I see this as a move by Shamano to try make more money by forcing us to buy batteries every 3 years at $150 dollars a pop, instead of making no money on a sale of a DA or Ultegra component package over the life of the components. And the long term life expectancy of Di2 system as a whole is only 8 to 10 years, so now you have an absolutely serviceable frame but will need to replace the entire Di2 system at HUGE cost. Like I said before this all about churning money out of our pockets into theirs constantly just as appliance companies have been doing for years (just one example), so shareholders can make money.

The only thing that story does mention is that Shamano could release a new line of mechanical derailleurs, but that only comes from the editor, it does not come from Shamano. Shamano is cagey about future release stuff, so time will tell what they'll do, but I seriously believe that if we do not take a stand and bomb them with emails requesting that they keep DA and Ultegra as mechanical they will indeed seize manufacturing of mechanical DA and Ultegra because they'll see it as there isn't enough interest from buyers to keep the mechanical stuff. So I believe it's up to us to make some noise as to what Shamano will do.
We should send them hand written letters by the USPS.


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We need to be very vocal to Shamano about their plans to eliminate mechanical DA and Ultegra, if they get enough E-mails telling them to keep the mechanical DA and Ultegra stuff they could change their minds.
Good luck with that. Do you think they haven't taken that into consideration? What are you gonna do? Boycott and buy SRAM or Campy? They're going to be all electric in the next few years too.
Their business is innovation. Always has been. Always will.
If it made financial sense to cater to the small minority of luddites.. they would. But it doesn't. So they won't.


These are the same arguments when they went from 7 to 8 speed. And 8 to 9 speed. And 9 to 10 speed. And 10 to 11 speed. What? 😲 I gotta buy different chains? I gotta buy different hubs to fit my cassettes? ZOMG
The same arguments when cars went from carburetors to fuel injection. Nobody makes an inline 6 cylinder with a double barrel carburetor anymore. They were so much easier to work on!

Shimano released 8 sp 6400 groupset 30 years ago. If that's your thing, you can still buy brand new modern 8 sp groupsets.... that are way more advanced that your 30yro stuff.
 

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Good luck with that. Do you think they haven't taken that into consideration? What are you gonna do? Boycott and buy SRAM or Campy? They're going to be all electric in the next few years too.
Their business is innovation. Always has been. Always will.
If it made financial sense to cater to the small minority of luddites.. they would. But it doesn't. So they won't.


These are the same arguments when they went from 7 to 8 speed. And 8 to 9 speed. And 9 to 10 speed. And 10 to 11 speed. What? 😲 I gotta buy different chains? I gotta buy different hubs to fit my cassettes? ZOMG
The same arguments when cars went from carburetors to fuel injection. Nobody makes an inline 6 cylinder with a double barrel carburetor anymore. They were so much easier to work on!
hav
Shimano released 8 sp 6400 groupset 30 years ago. If that's your thing, you can still buy brand new modern 8 sp groupsets.... that are way more advanced that your 30yro stuff.
Well that's fine but there are millions of more bikes with mechanical than there are with electrical, so they're stabbing themselves in the back to ignore millions of people, why? MONEY, they're trying to force people to ditch their mechanical bikes and buy electrical ones, the technology is not that reliable for the long term with the life expectancy of Di2 to be between 5 to 8 years, then it costs a huge fortune to replace stuff unlike mechanical. You can call me names all you want but the fact is this is all about money, has nothing to do with better technology because for the long term it isn't. This isn't about adding stupid gears, gears, chains, etc are cheap, but not electrical components.

And you don't have a clue about 30 year old stuff, let me know when your new crap gets over 150,000 miles on it without repairs...THEY WON'T MAKE IT ANYWHERE NEAR THAT MILEAGE, maybe 50,000 miles max! I do have modern stuff, so don't yak on here that I only 30 year old stuff, but don't tell me the 30 year old stuff is not superior in reliability because that is false my friend.
 

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Good luck with that. Do you think they haven't taken that into consideration? What are you gonna do? Boycott and buy SRAM or Campy? They're going to be all electric in the next few years too.
Their business is innovation. Always has been. Always will.
If it made financial sense to cater to the small minority of luddites.. they would. But it doesn't. So they won't.


These are the same arguments when they went from 7 to 8 speed. And 8 to 9 speed. And 9 to 10 speed. And 10 to 11 speed. What? I gotta buy different chains? I gotta buy different hubs to fit my cassettes? ZOMG
The same arguments when cars went from carburetors to fuel injection. Nobody makes an inline 6 cylinder with a double barrel carburetor anymore. They were so much easier to work on!

Shimano released 8 sp 6400 groupset 30 years ago. If that's your thing, you can still buy brand new modern 8 sp groupsets.... that are way more advanced that your 30yro stuff.
They are same arguments but to different degrees. Going from 8 to 11 speed isn’t on par with going from manual to electronic shifting or rim to hydraulic disc braking. I don’t think Luddite applies here... Electronic shifting doesn’t improve shifting. It has cool features, yes. Like selecting your gear combinations for you so you can mindlessly go up or down resistance. I’m not the only cyclist that doesn’t struggle with being in the gear combo we want... Yes, the big advancement is ditching cables. But is the motor and computer more reliable? Does the cost difference make it a better option? Is fussing with it better in ways that fussing with a barrel adjuster is?

Hydraulic disc brakes will stop a bike better and more reliably, especially in wet conditions. I can’t imagine snow and ice riding on my mtb without the great performance of my discs. But what % of roadies will experience any performance improvement in their riding? None? That’s my guess or Ineos would have made the swap. Yes, in racing, small changes matter more than for us. But if it amounted to marginal gains, they’d be doing it. Brailsford may be a lot of things, but he is no idiot about gear and performance.

These two improvements seem to be pure pork barrel. Are they advancements? Yes. Are they better? Probably yes, in some cases. Is the cost worth it? For some yes and for others, their gear isn’t improved enough to bother.

It’s all very cool, it’s good swag. It’s just that neither solve a problem or really improve existing tech.


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Electronic shifting doesn’t improve shifting.
The one big improvement I see is that with electronic, you can be standing and cranking hard and upshift to the big chainring. I haven't ridden newer mechanical groups enough to try it on them, maybe they can do that now.
 

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Well that's fine but there are millions of more bikes with mechanical than there are with electrical, so they're stabbing themselves in the back to ignore millions of people, why?
As I said... it's what sells. They are in the business of innovation and selling stuff.
Why is that so hard to understand?
Cars. Rocket ships. Phones. Computers. Bicycles.
Do you seriously think they haven't weighed the loss/benefit of not selling 12 speed mechanical? Seriously?

And as I said.... you can still buy brand new 8speed, 9speed, 10speed technology. If that's your thing. Nobody is being stabbed in the back.

Maybe when you write your letter to Shimano you could tell them of your boycott and going to buy Sram Red 12 speed mechanical... oh.. NOT. That's only available in.... electronic.
Sram has already been 'stabbing' themselves in the back and doing fine.
 

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Electronic shifting doesn’t improve shifting.
Yes it does.
But is the motor and computer more reliable?
Yes.
Is fussing with it better in ways that fussing with a barrel adjuster is?
Fussing? lol. There is no fussing. I've got 3 bikes with tens of thousands of miles. Never fussed once. Haven't touched a derailleur once after it was setup. It shifts exactly the same on mile one and mile 20,000 with zero maintenance between.


But hey... you can still buy brand new 10 speed mechanical.

Even 9 speed mechanical.
 

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Yes it does.
Yes.
Fussing? lol. There is no fussing. I've got 3 bikes with tens of thousands of miles. Never fussed once. Haven't touched a derailleur once after it was setup. It shifts exactly the same on mile one and mile 20,000 with zero maintenance between.


But hey... you can still buy brand new 10 speed mechanical.

Even 9 speed mechanical.
My Dura Ace 9000 is push button perfect. Granted, I only have maybe just short of 1K on it… How is a system better than one that works flawlessly? I understand innovation and sales… Neither mean improved? I have not ridden electronic shifting so I can’t really compare… But if any system, if it works flawlessly, how is it made better?


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Get back to me after 20,000 miles.

:rolleyes:
I've 35,000 miles on a Chorus 11spd group with nary a problem. Changed the cables once or twice in that time, but that's just maintenance.

I understand that these companies are there to make money, but I see no reason for me to give them mine to replace something that does everything that I ask of it without a hitch. Others though, need to follow the latest trend.
 

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I've 35,000 miles on a Chorus 11spd group with nary a problem. Changed the cables once or twice in that time, but that's just maintenance.
Changed cables twice in 35,000 miles? That sure beats the 2000 mile interval I have to change a Shimano rear shifter cable.
 

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Well Campy does have the advantage of better cable life. On shimano mechanical, you'd be looking at 5-10 cable sets in that time.
Yup. I had one cable that only lasted 800 miles. My latest cable lasted a whopping 2800 miles.

I am now using an Aligator 31 cable for my latest change. We'll see how this works.
 

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With the down trickle of technology, I'll be happy to by mechanical Tiagra 10spd. I don't need a dinner plate on the back of my bike nor do I need 2x12, 24 gears. That's why I got rid of the triple in the first place. Let them continue to innovate as long as they move the older technology (that worked perfectly fine) to the lower tiers. If I was racing, I'd consider electric shifting but a bike is supposed to be mechanical engineering IMO.
 

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I gave up on Shimano and switched over to Campy a decade ago. And that was after riding Shimano stuff for years. 7700 was a good group, and that was the last one I had.

I can see Dura Ace being all electronic. $4400 isn't to far off what the 11-speed electronic Dura Ace costs. But $2400 for Ultegra? At my LBS, I'd say 75% of the road bikes for sale had Ultegra. None had Dura Ace. It's Shimano's bread and butter group, and they're now pricing it out of what a lot of folks want to pay? If there were ever a time for Campy to drop their ridiculous pricing practices in the U.S. and grab some market share, now is it. Shimano is making a big mistake here.
 

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My R3, purchased in 2016, has a Dura-Ace 9100 mechanical drivetrain with Ultegra levers and brakes (after-market upgrades to DA 9100). Thousands of miles with flawless performance and shifting. I replaced the cables this past summer as part of a yearly tune-up, but upon inspection, saw that they didn't need to be replaced. I will most likely keep this bike for awhile.

If I want my next bike to be 12-speed mechanical, 105 with upgrades to mechanical components like the crankset, cassette and chain would make a very nice bike. Pretty sure Ultegra and DA 12-speed will be cross-compatible for the mechanical components.

I'm a big fan of Ultegra and can understand why people are disappointed in Shimano's decision to go all electronic, but I'm not really concerned. I still think I'd be able to build a fantastic mechanical bike in the foreseeable future. I also think/hope that as electronic shifting technology matures, we'll see prices coming down for those groups, making them more accessible.
 

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I pieced together a Super Record 12 speed mechanical group for less than $2K. The idea of paying more than that for Ultegra seems absurd. I only have one bike with Shimano components and even it is Shimergo (Campy shifters, Shimano drivetrain) because of the cable issues. I can guarantee that I will never buy electronic groupsets because I despise battery charging of any kind. I have enough trouble getting out the door worrying about tire pressure, water bottles, cycling gear and taping my nips!
 
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