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Here is a picture for next year's Shimano 105 wheelset, as you can see they've decided to go against conventional wisdom and laced the drive side radially. Either they have come up with somethingvery smart, which I doubt, or they will have to deal with lots of warranty claims.

 

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rogger said:
Here is a picture for next year's Shimano 105 wheelset, as you can see they've decided to go against conventional wisdom and laced the drive side radially. Either they have come up with somethingvery smart, which I doubt, or they will have to deal with lots of warranty claims.


Not that I'm a big fan, but they have been doing this on their Dura Ace wheels for a while now. Mavic Ksyriums are also like that.
 

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Why do these factory wheels do this and all homebuilts I've had are the other way around, 3x on drive side and 2x or radial on nondrive
 

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moose8500 said:
Why do these factory wheels do this and all homebuilts I've had are the other way around, 3x on drive side and 2x or radial on nondrive

Good question. Noone who actually builds wheels has been able to provide a good explaination. They are making the spokes with the least amout of tension on them and making them the only drive spokes in the wheel.

-Eric
 

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It's called marketing

moose8500 said:
Why do these factory wheels do this and all homebuilts I've had are the other way around, 3x on drive side and 2x or radial on nondrive
You have to have tangential spokes somewhere in the rear wheel to be able to effectively transmit pedaling forces. Logic suggests that it should be on the right side, but as MAVIC and Shimano have demonstrated, it is possible to do it on the left. I think the technical term for this is "market segmentation differentiation." Note that this is a technical term from people with marketing degrees, not from people with mechanical engineering degrees.
 

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Kerry Irons said:
You have to have tangential spokes somewhere in the rear wheel to be able to effectively transmit pedaling forces. Logic suggests that it should be on the right side, but as MAVIC and Shimano have demonstrated, it is possible to do it on the left. I think the technical term for this is "market segmentation differentiation." Note that this is a technical term from people with marketing degrees, not from people with mechanical engineering degrees.
Nice!

-Eric
 

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Technical reasons

Kerry Irons said:
You have to have tangential spokes somewhere in the rear wheel to be able to effectively transmit pedaling forces. Logic suggests that it should be on the right side, but as MAVIC and Shimano have demonstrated, it is possible to do it on the left. I think the technical term for this is "market segmentation differentiation." Note that this is a technical term from people with marketing degrees, not from people with mechanical engineering degrees.
Well, there actually is a technical justification for radial driveside spokes.

As Kerry says, there must be tangential spokes to transmit torque to the rim. If all the spokes were radial, the wheel would actually "wind up" (hub rotate with respect to the spokes) a small amount, creating enough of an angle to transmit torque. Of course, in this case, the moment arm would be so small that huge tension changes in the spokes would be required to transmit torque, and spoke life would be very short. Instead, it is best to have spokes that are tangential to start with.

So, which side should the tangential spokes be on? As Kerry says, the obvious place is the right side. But if the hub spool (the shaft connecting the flanges) is large enough in diameter, it can affectively transmit torque to the left flange. Older style hubs with narrow shafts can not transmit torque to the left flange as affectively, which is why you'll see that all wheels with radial right spokes use large diameter spools.

But if both flanges can transmit torque (assuming large diameter spool), why select the left instead of the right? One possible reason is better illustrated with the Mavic's Ksyrium wheels, which use fat aluminum spokes (3mm wide). The spokes on Ksyrium wheels are so fat, that the additional stack-up width at the crossing point could cause the derailleur to rub on the spokes. There are two solutions to this crossing width problem - either move the flange inboard, which had the disadvantage of increasing rear wheel dish; or lacing the right spokes radially. 8/9/10spd rear wheels already have too much dish, so the Mavic opted to lace the right spokes radially, and tangentially lace the left spokes instead.

Taking a look at the phone of the Shimano 105 wheel hub, you can see that the drive side spokes are about as far outboard as they can be, without the chain or derailleur intefering with the spokes. If the drive-side spokes were crossed, they would have to be shifted inboard a few millimeters, increasing dish.

So, the technical justification of drive side radial lacing is that it can allow either fatter spokes, or reduced dish; the caveat is that the hub has to have a large diameter (stiff and strong) spool.

That being said, the Shimano 105 wheel hub does have some liabilities. For example, if the wheel were to go out of true in the middle of a ride, it will be nearly impossible to get a spoke wrench on the drive-side spokes without removing the cassette.
 

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cassette body splines

Just noticed that the cassette body splines have a different profile than what I am used to seeing...

Perhaps this is a weight savings ?

J
 

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Mark McM said:
That being said, the Shimano 105 wheel hub does have some liabilities. For example, if the wheel were to go out of true in the middle of a ride, it will be nearly impossible to get a spoke wrench on the drive-side spokes without removing the cassette.
It looks simular to the R550 wheels. If you take off the spoke protector you can get a wrench on the spokes. The wheels come with a special wrench that'll fit. You cant get more than 1/8 - 1/4 turn at a time, but it works.
 

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Argentius said:
and this is the reverse of the Campy "G3" system, with 2x drive and radial non-drive...
Nope - the photo shows a 20 spoke wheel with 10 spokes on each side. Campy's G3 lacing has twice as many spokes on one side vs. the other (specifically, twice as many right spokes). Also, Campy usually laces the left side G3 spokes radially, but they need not be - for example, I've built a few 24 spoke wheels with 16 spokes 2x on the right side and 8 spokes 1x on the left side.
 

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jhbeeton said:
Just noticed that the cassette body splines have a different profile than what I am used to seeing...

Perhaps this is a weight savings ?
If you mean the double splines (or what is really a notch in the middle of the splines) - this has been used by Shimano for at least the last few years on various models of freehubs. It might save a gram or two, or it might be just for looks. In any case, it doesn't affect function at all, and 8/9/10spd cassettes fit the same as with non-notched-spline freehubs.
 

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Kerry Irons said:
I think the technical term for this is "market segmentation differentiation." Note that this is a technical term from people with marketing degrees, not from people with mechanical engineering degrees.
Well said. Being in marketing myself, I will add that there are lots of people with marketing degrees who could not tell you what that term means... and would not get anywhere near my wheels. But we all look good in our black sweaters at the coffee machine.
 

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Half radial wheels not new - and neither is Triplet and G3 lacing

Argentius said:
Yeah, but the drive side is radial, and the non-drive is crossed... that's all I meant.
Well, you'll have to go back at least to the Roval wheels of 30 years ago for the comparison then. Roval wheels, the first of the modern aero wheels, used "triplet" lacing, with twice as many spokes on the right side of their rear wheels than the left, and had crossed right spokes and radial left. The major difference between Roval's triplet lacing and Campagnolo's G3 lacing is that Rovals spokes were equally spaced at the rim whereas G3 has spokes grouped in sets of three.

Of course, that's just for bicycle wheels. Automobile wire wheels were using triplet lacing long before bicycle wheels. Take a look at the wheels on a Force Model A from 80 years ago (Here's some at the bottom of this page) , and you'll see that their wire spoked wheels were dished, had twice as many spokes on the "drive" side than on the "non-drive" side, and that the "drive-side" spokes were crossed and the "non-drive" side spokes are radial. It just goes to show that despite bicycle product marketers claims, there's rarely anything new under the sun, and what comes around goes around.
 

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Mark McM said:
I've built a few 24 spoke wheels with 16 spokes 2x on the right side and 8 spokes 1x on the left side.
That's my favorite rear wheel build. I was pissed when zipp went to angled spoke holes and I couldn't use it anymore with their rims (not that I didn't try anyway).
 

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Now for something really dumb...

rogger said:
Here is a picture for next year's Shimano 105 wheelset, as you can see they've decided to go against conventional wisdom and laced the drive side radially. Either they have come up with somethingvery smart, which I doubt, or they will have to deal with lots of warranty claims.
Actually it is smart... *if* the hub is designed to take the torque.

Now for something really stupid:
https://gallery.roadbikereview.com/data/roadbike/500/medium/78849IMG_1725.jpg

As in... how to add spokes but insure that they do nothing for the lateral stability...
 

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Mark McM said:
Nope - the photo shows a 20 spoke wheel with 10 spokes on each side. Campy's G3 lacing has twice as many spokes on one side vs. the other (specifically, twice as many right spokes). Also, Campy usually laces the left side G3 spokes radially, but they need not be - for example, I've built a few 24 spoke wheels with 16 spokes 2x on the right side and 8 spokes 1x on the left side.

Most rims today have spoke holes angles to one side or the other. How did you overcome this? I assume you had a 32 hole hub, but were you using a 24 hole rim or a 32 hole rim with gaps between groups of spokes?

Thank you,
Eric
 
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