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Simple Question: Are bikes getting progressively better or worse with each generation?

5772 Views 96 Replies 20 Participants Last post by SPlKE, 1 mo ago

jta

Discussion Starter · 2 mo ago

Seeing a lot of complaints lately about innovations being marketing gimmicks or product durability. I've been riding since 2009 and I think groupsets, braking, wheel and tire technology have collectively improved albeit with more complexities for use and maintenance. All of the components I've used have been bombproof, with few failures to note and have been able to get warranty replacements in some cases.

As a whole, I have no complaints. So, wondering if these negative perceptions are based in reality? Or are people idealizing the past?

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jta

Discussion Starter · #21 · 2 mo ago

bvber said:
As for the frequency of shifting? It would be the terrine dependent, i.e. mostly flat ride will obviously use less shifting than up & down ride.

Shorter weekday rides I'm looking at maybe a 2-3K, longer weekend rides will top out around 8K climbing/descending.

bvber said:
I'm sure you are familiar with little release at a time for that steady stream of sales. It's business.

All of my recent comments advocate that businesses conduct themselves in a responsible manner to the benefit of end users. I'm trained as a designer and my natural inclination is to create things that are useful to people. Product lines have to be planned months and years in advance before launch. Do you have a problem with this? Otherwise you're not going to get the bike you want to ride or what you do get will really suck. It sounds like you have a problem with the MBAs sitting in the c-suite rolling their stoagies with $100 bills. That's not me.

bvber

· #22 · 2 mo ago

jta said:
All of my recent comments advocate that businesses conduct themselves in a responsible manner to the benefit of end users.

Didn't you recently state that business give what the consumers want? Wanting something and benefiting aren't the same things. Soda, a.k.a. carbonated sweetened water, is wanted by consumers but it's not beneficial to them, it's harmful instead. Tobacco is another example.

I'm trained as a designer and my natural inclination is to create things that are useful to people.

I bet that your company hired you to create things that are useful to the company's business more than anything else. I may lose that bet if your company is a nonprofit organization funded by grants to research the beneficial things for people.

Product lines have to be planned months and years in advance before launch. Do you have a problem with this? Otherwise you're not going to get the bike you want to ride or what you do get will really suck. It sounds like you have a problem with the MBAs sitting in the c-suite rolling their stoagies with $100 bills. That's not me.

I've cited one of business plans used by many consumer goods companies for generations. They may have big ideas and technologies but they will release it to the market in steady stream fashion so that it brings them steady stream of income. It's not illegal. Think of it as something like Hoover Dam, which regulates the water flow so that the flash flood of Colorado River doesn't cause too much or too little water down the stream. I'm sure you like steady income. Who doesn't?

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jta

Discussion Starter · #23 · 2 mo ago

@bvber, this is now a silly conversation. The latest staff position I held was Creative Director for an anti-hate non-profit group, and I do pro-bono work for educational and animal rescue orgs when I can contribute. As I said, I try to create things that are useful and beneficial. But here you're putting words into my mouth, thoughts into my head and have me advocating pushing soda and tobacco on innocent, unsuspecting people. One of the educational orgs I worked with over the pandemic helps children from underserved communities learn about better health and nutrition. I created a brand system for an educational NPO that teaches children about sea life and ocean stewardship. I avoid working with the types of companies you seem to have a problem with.

All companies need to have a coherent business plan, listen to their customers needs and generate an income stream, just like you need to hold a job or own a business to survive. Some companies are better than others at being socially repsonsible. I honestly have no idea what point you're trying to make.

How about this: I'm trying to keep the discussion about cycling, which is presumably why you and I are here. I like bikes. Happy to chat with you about them.

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Reactions: 1

duriel

· #24 · 2 mo ago

Ha!!!!

bvber

· #25 · 2 mo ago

bvber said:
Didn't you recently state that business give what the consumers want?

jta said:
But here you're putting words into my mouth, thoughts into my head and have me advocating pushing soda and tobacco on innocent, unsuspecting people.

The quote below is what I was referring to.

jta said:
Consumers are partially responsible for driving quality down because they want cheap stuff and a lot of it – everything is disposable to them.

Then you posted the following.

jta said:
All of my recent comments advocate that businesses conduct themselves in a responsible manner to the benefit of end users.

I mentioned the distinction between consumers' want vs. benefit by citing two well known examples so that it would be easy to understand my reply. How you interpret that as "have me advocating pushing soda and tobacco on innocent, unsuspecting people" is very strange.

One of the educational orgs I worked with over the pandemic helps children from underserved communities learn about better health and nutrition. I created a brand system for an educational NPO that teaches children about sea life and ocean stewardship. I avoid working with the types of companies you seem to have a problem with.

What about the company that you are currently working for?

All companies need to have a coherent business plan, listen to their customers needs and generate an income stream, just like you need to hold a job or own a business to survive.

That's part of running business. Who said otherwise?

Some companies are better than others at being socially repsonsible. I honestly have no idea what point you're trying to make.

I thought I wrote simple enough of sentences to show my points. Again, it's very strange. It seems intentional now.

How about this: I'm trying to keep the discussion about cycling, which is presumably why you and I are here. I like bikes. Happy to chat with you about them.

You brought up high end models and how long they last, a.k.a. bombproof. Sora group set lasts long time too with proper maintenance. But the company can get more business by marketing more "delicious" looking / sounding products to consumers. Your decision to buy Ultegra and Dura Ace components was likely due the influence of Shimano's marketing ploy. Lets not forget that you brought up on the other thread the importance of getting informed.

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regan40c

· #26 · 2 mo ago

jta said:
Seeing a lot of complaints lately about innovations being marketing gimmicks or product durability. I've been riding since 2009 and I think groupsets, braking, wheel and tire technology have collectively improved albeit with more complexities for use and maintenance. All of the components I've used have been bombproof, with few failures to note and have been able to get warranty replacements in some cases. As a whole, I have no complaints. So, wondering if these negative perceptions are based in reality? Or are people idealizing the past?

If I compare my current bike (2022) with my late 1970's bike, the current bike is much better in braking, handling, shifting, comfort and speed. The only thing that could possibly lean toward the older bike could be reliability. I'll report back in a few years after l see how the latest bike fares.

Reactions: 1

jta

Discussion Starter · #27 · 2 mo ago

regan40c said:
If I compare my current bike (2022) with my late 1970's bike, the current bike is much better in braking, handling, shifting, comfort and speed. The only thing that could possibly lean toward the older bike could be reliability. I'll report back in a few years after l see how the latest bike fares.

That is a big gap between purchases. If you kept your old bike in running condition for the past 40+ years, that's impressive.

What I'm reading in this thread seems to align with my experience – there is generally steady progress/improvement over time (however you want to define that) but the rate of improvement tends to be non-linear. Bad product trends tend to eventually be dropped. Increased complexity make a lot of so called improvements less user-friendly.

I'm wondering if the return to threaded BSA bottom brackets or the adoption of threaded T47 BBs for larger spindle diameters will eventually lead to press fit BBs being eliminated from the market.

Lombard

· #28 · 2 mo ago

jta said:
I'm wondering if the return to threaded BSA bottom brackets or the adoption of threaded T47 BBs for larger spindle diameters will eventually lead to press fit BBs being eliminated from the market.

We can only hope so.

Reactions: 3

velodog

· #29 · 2 mo ago

Wireless shifting is reaching its zenith.

Nivex Automatic Transmission – Rene Herse Cycles

Reactions: 2

jta

Discussion Starter · #30 · 2 mo ago

velodog said:
Wireless shifting is reaching its zenith.

Nivex Automatic Transmission – Rene Herse Cycles

Hehe, nice. Happy April Fools to you, too, velo!

Xydadx3

· #31 · 2 mo ago

I had to check the date of the article to be sure…

jta

Discussion Starter · #32 · 2 mo ago

Xydadx3 said:
I had to check the date of the article to be sure…

Have to admit it was perfect timing for this thread. Considered not replying to see if someone would fall for it. The deapan market-ese was perfect.

jta

Discussion Starter · #33 · 2 mo ago

Slope Rectangle Plot Organism Font

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Reactions: 4

tlg

· #34 · 2 mo ago

jta said:
View attachment 487605

🤣
They've been pretty dormant for a while. Just recently started advertising on Facebook again.
The comments on this video are pretty brutal. It's all the same stuff from when they posted here. Nobody buys their BS

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1344703596367538

OMG this is like an SNL fake infomercial. 😂😂

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=475400774285261

The pedals are so fast... you can turn up the handlebars and drop the saddle on your Venge.

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2

Reactions: 1

duriel

· #35 · 2 mo ago

Seriously, how do you operate the brakes? I guess when your not on the brakes, your on the flats?

Reactions: 1

Lombard

· #36 · 2 mo ago

tlg said:
🤣
They've been pretty dormant for a while. Just recently started advertising on Facebook again.
The comments on this video are pretty brutal. It's all the same stuff from when they posted here. Nobody buys their BS

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1344703596367538

OMG this is like an SNL fake infomercial. 😂😂

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=475400774285261

The pedals are so fast... you can turn up the handlebars and drop the saddle on your Venge.

It doesn't matter how your handlebars and saddle are adjusted. You don't even need to be on your bike. When you buy Pitbull Pedals, you automatically win!

Remember that these were "just a couple of old bored guys" with nothing better to do who decided to start a company.

regan40c

· #37 · 2 mo ago

jta said:
That is a big gap between purchases. If you kept your old bike in running condition for the past 40+ years, that's impressive.

What I'm reading in this thread seems to align with my experience – there is generally steady progress/improvement over time (however you want to define that) but the rate of improvement tends to be non-linear. Bad product trends tend to eventually be dropped. Increased complexity make a lot of so called improvements less user-friendly.

I'm wondering if the return to threaded BSA bottom brackets or the adoption of threaded T47 BBs for larger spindle diameters will eventually lead to press fit BBs being eliminated from the market.

Unfortunately, my old bike went up in flames (literally) in a storage unit fire.

However I still remember (fairly accurately) how well it rode, braked, etc. It's fun to think back on some of my rides on that bike but I know that my newer bike is head and shoulders better in just about every measurable way.

Reactions: 1

Lombard

· #38 · 2 mo ago

regan40c said:
Unfortunately, my old bike went up in flames (literally) in a storage unit fire. However I still remember (fairly accurately) how well it rode, braked, etc. It's fun to think back on some of my rides on that bike but I know that my newer bike is head and shoulders better in just about every measurable way.

Just like with cars. Some of us have fond memories of cars we grew up with. But see those cars now and we realize just how crude they were - polluting, hard starting, unreliable, etc. Ever been to a classic car show when everyone was getting in their cars and driving out? What a stench! But since all cars of the day spewed poison, we were so used to it, we didn't even smell it!

Reactions: 1

Fredrico

· #39 · 2 mo ago

jta said:
Agree with a lot of this. The bicycle is simple, elegant and efficient. It serves a lot purposes and should be accessible to most if not all people to enjoy. You can still find these bikes in mid and lower tiers. You can still buy beautiful steel bikes. The competitive, high-end market drives innovation and price increases. I don't need or want a lot of the latest tech that makes maintenance a nightmare, but I simply won't buy those bikes.

I don't like the elimination of high-end mechanical groupsets as I think they reached a pinnacle (sorry Lombard) and then they ditched them completely. That doesn't make sense to me.

You could definitely say mechanical click shifting reached a pinnacle by the time 10 speeds became standard. Computers solved the problem of 11, 12, 13 speeds being ultra sensitive to mechanical click stops in the levers and cables minutely stretching, and wireless eliminated the compromised performance and maintenance nightmares of internal cable routing.

Carbon rims demanded separate disc brakes, and they in turn called for through axles. But lugged steel tubing, threaded bottom brackets, down tube shifters, and 6 speed freewheels, worked fine and the best were durable. Enthusiasts still build them, like musical instrumetns. They don't get old, just take their place in the lexicon of bikes, ever more wondrous magic carpet rides, each with its tradeoff of simplicity, durability, and ease of maintenance. Socially competitive types show off the latest tech on group rides. The rest of us just want a bike that'll range far and wide, and make it home with 40 miles to go. Gravel bikes seem to be addressing that market. Back in the '80s, they called it "fast touring."

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Lombard

· #40 · 2 mo ago

Fredrico said:
You could definitely say mechanical click shifting reached a pinnacle by the time 10 speeds became standard. Computers solved the problem of 11, 12, 13 speeds being ultra sensitive to mechanical click stops in the levers and cables minutely stretching, and wireless eliminated the compromised performance and maintenance nightmares of internal cable routing.

Cables don't stretch. Housing ferrules bed in and that's what makes further adjustment necessary after new cables and housings are installed.

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