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jaded bitter joy crusher
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19,723 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
or, what we sing about when we sing about love.



Being a meditation on the common ground between Michel Foucault and Johnny Rotten.



Foreword:
Fredke is a fictional character.



Preface:
Mamas, don't let your children grow up to be professors. This is what happens when polymorphously perverse academics listen to pop music...





You have been warned.








Turn back now.








Not in front of the children!










Seriously, if you're easily offended, you don't want to be here.










Take careful notes. There will be a quiz after.










Dedicated to Creakyknees,
il miglior fabbro...












Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate













Dog-lead goths 'hounded off bus'


A goth who leads his girlfriend around with a dog lead and collar was stopped from getting on a bus amid fears for passenger safety, a bus firm confirmed.

Dani Graves, 25, and his fiancee Tasha Maltby, 19, of Dewsbury, West Yorks, claim they have been discriminated against by bus firm Arriva Yorkshire.

A politically correct friend tells me she would be happier if they took turns holding the leash.

Perhaps she was thinking of something like this...

<object width="425" height="344"><embed src="https://www.youtube.com/v/nb31X1pmrag&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></object>
[Michael Stipe]
So messed up I want you here
In my room I want you here
Now were gonna be face-to-face
And I'll lay right down in my favorite place
And now I wanna be your dog
Now I wanna be your dog
Now I wanna be your dog
Well c'mon

[Patti Smith]
Now I'm ready to close my eyes
And now I'm ready to close my mind
And now I'm ready to feel your hand
And lose my heart on the burning sands
And now I wanna be your dog
And now I wanna be your dog
Now I wanna be your dog
Well c'mon
But a lot of folks seem to have a definite preference for top or bottom. The location of power in dominance/submission relationships can be much more complicated than looking at who holds the leash (or, you might say, who's the Yorkie (Yorkee?) and who's the Yorker).

The difference between Lou Reed's Venus in Furs

<object width="425" height="344"><embed src="https://www.youtube.com/v/AwzaifhSw2c&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></object>
Kiss the boot of shiny, shiny leather
Shiny leather in the dark
Tongue of thongs, the belt that does await you
Strike, dear mistress, and cure his heart

Severin, Severin, speak so slightly
Severin, down on your bended knee
Taste the whip, in love not given lightly
Taste the whip, now plead for me
and Mick Jagger's Under My Thumb

<object width="425" height="344"><embed src="https://www.youtube.com/v/DI6WA-2CgyE&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></object>
Under my thumb
The squirmin' dog who's just had her day
Under my thumb
A girl who has just changed her ways

Its down to me, yes it is
The way she does just what shes told
Down to me, the change has come
Shes under my thumb
Ah, ah, say its alright

Under my thumb
A Siamese cat of a girl
Under my thumb
Shes the sweetest, hmmm, pet in the world
seems more about consent & desire vs. rage & control than who happens to be on top. And then there's Bryan Ferry's In Every Dream Home a Heartache with its apotheosis of objectification and submission

<object width="425" height="344"><embed src="https://www.youtube.com/v/t3D2JSBxjzI&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></object>
I bought you mail order
My plain wrapper baby
Your skin is like vinyl
The perfect companion
You float my new pool
De luxe and delightful
Inflatable doll
My role is to serve you
Disposable darling
Can´t throw you away now
Immortal and life size
My breath is inside you
I´ll dress you up daily
And keep you till death sighs
(nor is Ferry's iconography on the album cover, below, exactly empowering, possession of the leash notwithstanding)



Mapplethorpe's imagery is harder to categorize...







or Dominick & Eugene (NSFW: no link, but the truth is out there)

but when we get beyond these relatively tame images to his ones of extreme penetration, all most people can do is cringe. Despite the flinching, it's clear RM and his models found beauty and desire where others do not.
"And the moral of the story?" I said to Severin when I put the manuscript down on the table.
...
"That woman, as nature has created her and as man is at present educating her, is his enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion. This she can become only when she has the same rights as he, and is his equal in education and work.

"At present we have only the choice of being hammer or anvil, and I was the kind of donkey who let a woman make a slave of him, do you understand?

"The moral of the tale is this: whoever allows himself to be whipped, deserves to be whipped."
---L. von Sacher-Masoch, Venus in Furs​
<object width="425" height="344">
<embed src="https://www.youtube.com/v/ftzOFm1NXwY&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></object>
He's got a mind like a sewer and a heart like a fridge
He stands to be insulted and he pays for the privilege
...
Love is always scarpering or cowering or fawning
You drink yourself insensitive and hate yourself in the morning
---Elvis Costello​
<object width="425" height="344"><embed src="https://www.youtube.com/v/AdsOzfBvyZQ&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></object>
They're all the same in meeting love's confusion
Poor noble souls get blotted in illusion
The one who swore he could escape the clinches
Who is it that entangles him, wenches
It fain resists their lush authority
Before him stands his old dependency.
---Brecht


Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18 Show Content
What you know emotionally and what you crave sexually can be wildly contradictory --- Nan Goldin
The problem with the Yorkshire goths, I tell my PC friend, is not who's holding the leash, but how utterly conventional they are in their transgressions. Their taste in clothing and fetish appear chosen in not in a spirit of polymorphous adventure, but in grim conformity to a strict aesthetic code with which their peers hope to shock those who conform differently.



It reminds me that both Michel Foucault and Johnny Rotten said, "Sex is boring," although in quite different contexts.

<object width="425" height="344"><embed src="https://www.youtube.com/v/n2H6Gh0nJlI&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></object>
The name of this song is Penguin in Bondage,
An' it's a song that ah, deals with the possible variations on
a basic theme which is...well,
You understand what a basic theme is.
And then the variations include ah, manoeuvres that might be
executed with the aid of ah, extra-terrestrial gratification
and devices which might or might not be supplied in a local
department store or perhaps a drugstore but at very least in
one of those fancy new shops that they advertise in the
back-pages of the free press.
This song suggests to the suggestible listener that the
ordinary procedure ah,
That I am circumlocuting at this present time in order to get
this text on television,
Is that ah, if you wanna do something other than what you
thought you were gonna do when you first took your clothes off
and you just happened to have some DEVICES around...
Then it's, it's not only okay to get into the
PARAPHERNALIA of it all but...Hey!

---Frank Zappa
Human history is a long sequence of synonyms for the same word
---Réné Char, as used by Foucault
And coming full circle, we return to Iggy Pop, who is clear and direct about what he wants:

<object width="425" height="344"><embed src="https://www.youtube.com/v/IbLRf0j80wU&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></object>
So messed up I want you here
In my room I want you here
Now were gonna be face-to-face
And I'll lay right down in my favorite place
And now I wanna be your dog
Now I wanna be your dog
Now I wanna be your dog
Well c'mon

Now I'm ready to close my eyes
And now I'm ready to close my mind
And now I'm ready to feel your hand
And lose my heart on the burning sands
And now I wanna be your dog
And now I wanna be your dog
Now I wanna be your dog
Well c'mon
For my part, if virtue is its own reward and ignorance bliss, then erudition can be its own special purgatory.

Ingenuous Coda of Redemption:


<object width="425" height="344"><embed src="https://www.youtube.com/v/9UCKHywnbBU&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></object>



Call me Hyacinth!
 

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Jerkhard Sirdribbledick
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27,036 Posts
Oh, and by "extreme penetration" do you mean a blade inserted into one's urethra? That's the RM image forever emblazoned on my mind. I neither cringed nor flinched, but I was certainly fascinated. HTH.
 

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Sharp
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1,695 Posts
1 2 3 4 5...6,000!

<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Ol-KrTTta4g&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" height="344" width="425">

"...my therapist said not to see you no more."

:)
 

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Sticky Valentine
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28,404 Posts

He's the tired toy that everyone enjoyed
He wants to be a fancy man but he's nothing but a nancy boy
He's all pride and no joy

And being what you might call a *****
Always worked for me before
Now I'm a shabby doll
Untie the gag the cat's out of the bag
But won't show his claws
He's just a shabby doll

She said you must be joking
Some things are left unspoken
You're just a shabby doll
He's lying limp and soaking
He was openly broken
By just a shabby doll
 

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Lemur-ing
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18,987 Posts
All I saw was a person in leather.
 

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Sticky Valentine
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28,404 Posts
I'll be forward:

It's really bothering me that people aren't understanding the beauty of this thread.


joe
 

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jaded bitter joy crusher
Joined
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19,723 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
JoeDaddio said:
It's really bothering me that people aren't understanding the beauty of this thread.
I'm really liking that you're seeing the beauty in it. I put it together with considerable care and I was particularly hoping that you and a couple of others whom I won't name would get it.

There are all sorts of little nuggets in there if you look for them. Does anyone see how the hyacinth closes the circle in a couple of ways, connects the Jonathan Richman song to the prefatory material, and serves as a key to let the reader know what I'm trying to accomplish here? (Hint: the answer is not really about the phallic iconography of Mapplethorpe's flower photo).

The part I felt was kind of a fail was putting Nan Goldin right after Brecht: it's a kind of "captain obvious" move and I would have liked to do something more subtle, but I needed just before the Foucault/Lydon bit.

I am forever in your debt for supplying Shabby Doll. How perfect, and I can't believe I didn't think of it.
 

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Life Coach
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2,523 Posts
No, no. It's more than hoped for in the 5999 thread...

And I wouldn't sweat the so-called captain obvious move--that's really kind of a specious objection to raise to a perfectly functional structural element, esp. when what it supports works as well as everything else here...
 

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Sticky Valentine
Joined
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28,404 Posts
Fredke said:
I'm really liking that you're seeing the beauty in it. I put it together with considerable care and I was particularly hoping that you and a couple of others whom I won't name would get it.

There are all sorts of little nuggets in there if you look for them. Does anyone see how the hyacinth closes the circle in a couple of ways, connects the Jonathan Richman song to the prefatory material, and serves as a key to let the reader know what I'm trying to accomplish here? (Hint: the answer is not really about the phallic iconography of Mapplethorpe's flower photo).

The part I felt was kind of a fail was putting Nan Goldin right after Brecht: it's a kind of "captain obvious" move and I would have liked to do something more subtle, but I needed just before the Foucault/Lydon bit.

I am forever in your debt for supplying Shabby Doll. How perfect, and I can't believe I didn't think of it.

It all works very well.

As far as being subtle (I may have expected a Lotus)...One of my professors in grad school told me that I am entirely too forthright in my writing to ever be a successful academic.

He meant it as a compliment.

:D

And I love Jonathan Richman.


joe
 

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jaded bitter joy crusher
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19,723 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
orbit said:
"...my therapist said not to see you no more."
What a lovely response! And so fitting. Thanks. xoxoxo
 

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tofurkey hunting
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4,733 Posts
wow...i'm just speechless. i have just finished a 16 hour day... so i hope to offer a comment tomorrow that can only hope to not do a disservice to this loveliness
 

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Registered
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1,736 Posts
Hallelujah...


Your faith was strong but you needed proof
You saw her bathing on the roof
Her beauty and the moonlight overthrew you...
She tied you to her kitchen hair, she broke your throne and she cut your hair
And from your lips she drew a
Hallelujah.....
 

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jaded bitter joy crusher
Joined
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19,723 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
ampastoral said:
wow...i'm just speechless. i have just finished a 16 hour day... so i hope to offer a comment tomorrow that can only hope to not do a disservice to this loveliness
So...?

 

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tofurkey hunting
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4,733 Posts
i am embarassed at my delay, and only hope that i can add some thoughts :blush2:

i think your assessment of the tired attempted transgression of the yorkshire goths (btw, what a brilliant name for a guitar based pop band). however, i think there playfulness is performative and actually transgressive. it did get them thrown off of the bus, so to speak.

they represented a threat that i think very much occupies the minds of many people they never want to "squeel like a pig" or be subjected to tyrannical rule


but, i will also offer that sometimes the playful submission/domination of one partner can be teh uber-secksy. BUT, it must be confined to the private sphere where safe words are easily employed
Ah little Stacy Q
When she doesn't have a thing to do
She comes to my house
Well, let's keep that between me and you
She takes off her clothes
She likes to tell this boy what to do
Let's keep that between me and you, ok
She said oh come on boy aren't you tired of talking about sex
I said little girl what do you really expect
And then she pledges her allegiance
To the united states of me
She says you're such a little *****

She says head case head case
Turn that thing around
Let's play a game when you hear me make a sound
Just go quite a bit faster
Pretend that I'm gagged and bound
Oh how I love to hear that sound
Milkshake milkshake I love to feel you sweat
We don't have to go to the pool
If you want me to make you wet
Can you keep a secret
Because the best little secrets are kept
And you're my best little secret yet

Well, kit kat kit kat kitten you're the kicks
She said let me feel your love
I mean come on make it stick
I'm the best of your little baby chicks
oh you're my sweet tooth sugar fix

tick tock tick tock oh baby forget the clock
You don't have to do a thing
and you know I like your baby talk
Just make sure to close the shades and turn the lock


of course, when one self-identifies outside of the norm, the tendency can result in extreme difficulties in finding an assertive confidence in one's sexuality. the performance is always "just practice"
NOTE: the lyrics in the video are not always correct...the ones below should be
We lay on the bed there
Kissing just for practice
Could we please be objective?
Cause the other boys are queuing up behind us
A hand over my mouth
A hand over the window
Well, if I remain passive and you just want to cuddle
Then we should be ok, and we wont get into trouble
Cause were seeing other people
At least thats what we say we are doing

How are you feeling?
I dont think you can be dealing
With the situation very well
You take a lover for a dirty weekend, thats ok
But when its over
You are looking at the working week in the eyes of a gigolo

Youre kissing your elbow
Youre kissing your reflection
And you cant understand why all the other boys are going for the
New, tall, elegant rich kids
Ill admit it is a *****, kid
But if they dont see the quality then it is apparent that
Youre going to have to change
Or youre going to have to go with girls
You might be better off
At least they know where to put it


the problem is that experimentation both necessitates confidence but also requires foray into the unfamiliar. it requires a leap of faith no matter what. here we can see the insecurity turned into feigned confidence expressed as desire:
Late night, and passing, mention it flipped her
Best friend, who knows saying maybe it slipped
But the slip turns to terror and a crush to light
When she walked in, he throws up, believe its the fright

Its cute in a way, till you cannot speak
And you leave to have a cigarette, your knees get weak
An escape is just a nod and a casual wave
Obsessed about it, heavy for the next two days

It's only just a crush, it'll go away
It's just like all the others it'll go away
Or maybe this is danger and you just don't know
You pray it all away but it continues to grow

I want to hold you close
Skin pressed against me tight
Lie still, and close your eyes girl
So lovely, it feels so right

I want to hold you close
Soft breasts, beating heart
As I whisper in your ear

I want to f*cking tear you apart


but it can go awry
I heard it's cold out, but her popsicle melts
She's in the bathroom, she pleasures herself
Says I'm a bad man, she's locking me out
It's cause of these things, it's cause of these things

Let make a fast plan, watch it burn to the ground
I try to whisper, so no one figures it out
I'm not a bad man, I'm just overwhelmed
It's cause of these things, it's cause of these things



unfortunately, the very gender roles that are fought against penetrate the experimentation and often furthe render the male in a precarious position of enacting socially unacceptable aggression, though in the name of play. again we come back to confidence, trust, and the "safeness" of the play.
Ah bang a gong or get it on
We don't need to take off our clothes to get it on


and we come full circle to realize that amidst all the pressures from society, the best advice is the simplest
You're built like a car, you've got a hub cap diamond star halo
You're built like a car, oh yeah
You're an untamed youth that's the truth with your cloak full of eagles
You're dirty sweet and you're my girl.

get it on, bang the gong, get it on


respectfully
-amp
 

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tofurkey hunting
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4,733 Posts
btw....velvet underground...brilliant

and oars....a stabbing to the liver for you. your pennance is playable below
 

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Sticky Valentine
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28,404 Posts
Gender roles be damned behind the bedroom door as far as I'm concerned :D


At your command
Before you here I stand,
My heart is in my hand. Ecch!
It's here that I must be.
My heart entreats,
Just hear those savage beats,
And go put on your cleats
And come and trample me.
Your heart is hard as stone or mahogany,
That's why I'm in such exquisite agony.

My soul is on fire,
It's aflame with desire,
Which is why I perspire
When we tango.

You caught my nose
In your left castanet, Love,
I can feel the pain yet, Love,
Ev'ry time I hear drums.
And I envy the rose
That you held in your teeth, Love,
With the thorns underneath, Love,
Sticking into your gums.


There's not only something extremely sexy in handing over control, but even confidence building.

Though particular gender roles keep me from admitting too much in a public forum ;)


But when I hit the bottle, there's no tellin' what I'll do
'Cause something deep inside me wants to turn you black and blue
I can't resist you, I can't wait
To twist your loving arms 'til you capitulate

Beat me in the kitchen, and I'll beat you in the hall
There's nothing I love better than a free for all
To take your pretty neck and see which way it bends
But when it is all over we will still be friends


joe
 

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tofurkey hunting
Joined
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4,733 Posts
that is awesome!

To the Fair Clarinda
Who made love to me
Imagin'd more than woman


Fair lovely Maid, or if that Title be
Too weak, too Feminine for Nobler thee,
Permit a Name that more Approaches Truth:
And let me call thee Lovely Charming Youth.
This last will justifie my soft complaint,
While that may serve to lessen my constraint;
And without Blushes I the Youth persue,
When so much beauteous Woman is in view,
Against thy Charmes we struggle but in vain
With thy deluding Form thou giv'st pain,
While the bright Nymph betrays us to the Swain.
In pity to our Sex sure thou wer't sent,
That we might Love and yet be Innocent:
For sure no crime with thee we can commit;
Or if we should--thy Form excuses it.
For who that gathers fairest Flowers believes
A snake lies hid beneath the Fragrant Leaves.
Though beauteous Wonder of a different kind,
Soft Cloris with the dear Alexis join'd;
When e'er the Manly part of thee would plead
Though tempts us with the Image of the Maid,
While we the noblest Passions do extend
The Love to Hermes, Aphrodite the Friend.

-aphra behn
 

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Sticky Valentine
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28,404 Posts
Good stuff :)


joe
 
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