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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
The official report is supposed to released today, which has apparently happened now, and ASO has said they will exclude any riders under suspicion in the official report.

From cycling4all.com:

"alemán Jan Ullrich; el estadounidense Tyler Hamilton; y los españoles Roberto Heras
y Oscar Sevilla" and further also "Ivan Basso, Joseba Beloki, Santiago Botero,
Francisco Mancebo, Santi Pérez y Quique Gutierrez."

Should be a bunch more names (58 in total I believe).

Edit: I went to the website of El Pais and their most recent on-line story makes no mention of Basso or Mancebo (it mentions Angel Edo as well, not that affects the Tour). Cycling4all.com is now saying that the names were on the El Pais website but have now been removed. Rabobank riders Flecha and Menchov are mentioned from another source.
 

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Ruined?

Cheaters who steal the show ruin it.



Dwayne Barry said:
The official report is supposed to released today, which has apparently happened now, and ASO has said they will exclude any riders under suspicion in the official report.

From cycling4all.com:

"alemán Jan Ullrich; el estadounidense Tyler Hamilton; y los españoles Roberto Heras
y Oscar Sevilla" and further also "Ivan Basso, Joseba Beloki, Santiago Botero,
Francisco Mancebo, Santi Pérez y Quique Gutierrez."

Should be a bunch more names (58 in total I believe).
 

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Dwayne Barry said:
The French riders certainly appreciate the sentiment. Maybe no longer two speeds?
You mean the Cofidis riders? If they were really clean someone other than Bessons and Moncoutie would get mentioned occasionally.
The French riders are lazy not clean. 5 years of unemployment insurance if you somehow manage to get fired really impairs motivation.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
terzo rene said:
You mean the Cofidis riders? If they were really clean someone other than Bessons and Moncoutie would get mentioned occasionally.
The French riders are lazy not clean. 5 years of unemployment insurance if you somehow manage to get fired really impairs motivation.
I was just making a joke, somewhat. However, if no Ullrich, Basso or Mancebo and maybe more I'll really go out on a limb and predict 3 French riders (up from my previous 2 will be in the top-10).
 

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Dwayne Barry said:
I was just making a joke, somewhat. However, if no Ullrich, Basso or Mancebo and maybe more I'll really go out on a limb and predict 3 French riders (up from my previous 2 will be in the top-10).
I will go out on a limb and predict that the number of french riders in top 10 will be zero with 75% probability and one with 25% probability, no matter what happens.
 

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Dwayne Barry said:
Eurosport citing spanish radio says Ullrich and Basso are mentioned in the official report.

http://eurosport.com/cycling/tour-de-france/2006/sport_sto916732.shtml

That means no Tour for them, correct? Unless perhaps the CAS ruling tomorrow says ASO doesn't have the right to exclude teams/riders. Or does that case only deal with Astana?
I would think/hope that it depends on what else the official report says. If it is something like "we think that these code names are these riders" with nothing else to link them, I would hope they are allowed to ride. Same with the Astana team as far as I am concerned. If there are photos/video of them entering leaving the clinic or dna matches, or some form of conclusive evidence then they get bounced.

I think the CAS is only dealing with Astana, but prehaps they will issue a blanket policy due to the number of riders involved. I like the UCI's signed letter approach myself, it doesn't rush to judgement and promises punishment for those found not to be telling the truth.

Dave
 

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http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jun06/jun29news3

The recent news puts to bed the fact that Astana-Wurth should be dropped. Telecom, Rabobank, Phonak etc. should all also be dropped.

I would support a 'health suspension' of any rider linked to today's report by the ProTour and the UCI. This would be a great statement if they do this, and not simply leave all of the proactive attempts to clean up cycling in the hands of the ASO.
 

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correction

Spain didn't ruin the tour-a bunch of cheating scumbag riders did. Say what you want about a bunch of poor farmer's kids being pressured or whatever, but they all made a choice in the end to cheat and worse pretend to be clean and deserving of admiration. When riders didn't shave before a big race it was always said they were saving energy-maybe they just couldn't look at themselves in the mirror...
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
stevesbike said:
Spain didn't ruin the tour-a bunch of cheating scumbag riders did. Say what you want about a bunch of poor farmer's kids being pressured or whatever, but they all made a choice in the end to cheat and worse pretend to be clean and deserving of admiration. When riders didn't shave before a big race it was always said they were saving energy-maybe they just couldn't look at themselves in the mirror...
I think that is a very American way of looking at it. The vast majority of what I've read regarding riders and European fans and commentators opinion of doping is that it is not cheating. It is simply doing what is necessary for the job and since everyone does it, no one is being cheated.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Spunout said:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jun06/jun29news3

The recent news puts to bed the fact that Astana-Wurth should be dropped. Telecom, Rabobank, Phonak etc. should all also be dropped.

I would support a 'health suspension' of any rider linked to today's report by the ProTour and the UCI. This would be a great statement if they do this, and not simply leave all of the proactive attempts to clean up cycling in the hands of the ASO.
If it were up to me I'd let them all ride, but I feel I should point out that the boss of Astana was arrested with a large sum of money and doping products after meeting with one of the doping groups members, and several of the teams riders have been implicated (Serrano, Vicioso, Beloki, Heras, Nozal, etc.). They certainly are by far the most heavily involved team in # of riders and the fact that their boss is involved. No other team has that baggage.
 

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welll. I think the "if you're not cheating you're not trying" mentality is pretty American too, and I'm not so naive as to think it's not systematic in every pro sport, but that kind of accepting attitude about it only helps facilitate it. The sad thing, as your post points out, is that if it's rampant then there's no competitive advantage in cheating anyway, so the sport is ruined for no good reason, and the only solution is to make it really costly to cheat, including public humiliation. High penalties is the only solution to this sort of structural problem (what an economist would call a public goods game in which the presence of cheaters cause everyone to cheat). The only way to get rid of the cheaters is to punish them, like lifetime bans and criminal penalties.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
stevesbike said:
The sad thing, as your post points out, is that if it's rampant then there's no competitive advantage in cheating anyway,
You may not be able to get an advantage but you're not left at a disadvantage. Plus, back when EPO was easily useable it was probably true that there was no advantage to doping with it (once everyone was using it), but now that riders have probably had to resort back to old school blood doping, it may only be the top riders who make enough to pay for this relatively expensive and up until now "under the radar" doping method. Although Manzano discussed tranfusions when he broke the omerta a couple of years ago.
 

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I am more convinced than ever that no pro is actually "clean". To compete at this level, looks like you have to be on "something". Some may be on borderline illegal substances but no one who just "eats right" and trains hard can make it. Ok. I feel better now. Next time i get dropped by the local teams, i will just attribute it to my normal eating habits and the lack of any drugs whatsoever in my system.
 
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