[Wicked2006]

I see the SRAM site put up their road stuff. May the force be with you. I have Campy so I guess I will not be using the FORCE anytime soon.

Anyone ridden their road stuff yet? I'll wait a a few generations til I'm convinced it's ok. Campagnolo for now. Peace!

 

[Peith]

I just saw the shifter this morning. SRAM guys came to my shop before hours and gave us a little demo. Unfortunately, the shifter was all they brought. Its actually really cool in design. I'm not tooo too hot on how the hood looks, but I am impressed at SRAM's attitude in busting into the road component group. Two things I came away with:

1. SRAM is here to jump into Shimano's hold on the market, not Campy's. They said they respect what campy does, they are trying to compete with shimano.
2. SRAM road marketing is opposite SRAM mountain. They keep the brands under the SRAM group seperate for mountain (people like to mix and match their shocks, brakes, etc). Roadies want everything the same.

 

[Argentius]

#2 Huh, really? It's interesting how different groups feel differently bout marketing techniques.

You're saying (or, SRAM is saying) that MTBers would prefer to see "Company A fork, B rear shock, C derailleurs, and D cranks!" whereas roadies would choose "Company A gruppo?"

 

[lawrence]

I love the idea of SRAM getting in the road market. They're a good company and should come up with some good ideas and innovations. If SRAM wants a piece of the market, they'll have to do two things. Convince the major quality bike manufacturers to put their stuff on the bikes instead of Shimano and second, lower the price of the after market. The only way they'll convice the major bike manufacturers is to provide a quality component that's equivalent or better to Shimano and to sell it to them at a lower price. They need to get market share. Both moves will force Shimano to lower their prices. Most likely Shimano, instead of lowering their prices on the 105, Ultegra, Dura Ace, will come out with different names for their components at a lower price.

 

[Under ACrookedSky]

You're saying (or, SRAM is saying) that MTBers would prefer to see "Company A fork, B rear shock, C derailleurs, and D cranks!" whereas roadies would choose "Company A gruppo?"

That is right. If you build a high end mountain bike and you know what you are doing, you spec out each component. You use something like CK hubs and headset, Raceface cranks, SRAM X.0 rear derailleur shifter, Avid Ultimate brakes and levers, Shimano front derailleur and cassette, SRAM chain, etc. When you build a high end road bike you put on Record or, if you are brain damaged, you might put on Dura Ace. But you don't have MTBers going on about their "full" XTR because no one company is seen as making all the best components.

 

[bikeboy389]

I love the idea of SRAM getting in the road market. They're a good company and should come up with some good ideas and innovations. If SRAM wants a piece of the market, they'll have to do two things. Convince the major quality bike manufacturers to put their stuff on the bikes instead of Shimano and second, lower the price of the after market. The only way they'll convice the major bike manufacturers is to provide a quality component that's equivalent or better to Shimano and to sell it to them at a lower price. They need to get market share. Both moves will force Shimano to lower their prices. Most likely Shimano, instead of lowering their prices on the 105, Ultegra, Dura Ace, will come out with different names for their components at a lower price.

I also think they could give Shimano a slap if they just limited the pace of planned obsolescence in cranks and BBs. Campy has joined in the 8-9-10 speed wars, but you can still put any one of their cranks on a 20-year-old Campy BB. Shimano (and many other crank manufacturers) are using increasingly specialized setups that don't even work with last year's model of the very same part. If SRAM would settle on a basic design for the crank/BB interface and stick with it for more than two years, they'd get my respect for sure. It doesn't have to be square taper, though I don't see much convincing evidence that anything else is required, but if it were something I could count on being able to use five years down the road, that would be nice.

 

[ewitz]

Sorry to burst your bubble but Campy is moving to a new BB next year and it does not appear to be backwards compatible with the square taper.

 

[bikeboy389]

Sorry to burst your bubble but Campy is moving to a new BB next year and it does not appear to be backwards compatible with the square taper.

Awww, crap. I hope (though I kinda doubt) that they'll consider this new BB style to be the official one, and will hold onto it for a while. On the upside, it should mean Ebay will be flooded with higher-end Campy square taper cranks so I can upgrade at the expense of the "new hotness" dopes.

This only makes it more important for SRAM to settle on a standard, IMO.

 

[Peith]

#2 Huh, really? It's interesting how different groups feel differently bout marketing techniques.

You're saying (or, SRAM is saying) that MTBers would prefer to see "Company A fork, B rear shock, C derailleurs, and D cranks!" whereas roadies would choose "Company A gruppo?"

yes, however I did mention to them that weight weenies will spec out their bikes like moutnain bikers will. To that they say "they should go with record, its lightest"

 

[MarvinK]

Most likely Shimano, instead of lowering their prices on the 105, Ultegra, Dura Ace, will come out with different names for their components at a lower price.

Right now, it doesn't appear that Shimano will need to do either. The pricing of the Rival group is sort of ridiculous--appears to be substantially higher than Ultegra or Centaur. Maybe the street prices will be more competitive.

 

[MShaw]

Did a bit of a Google search, but didn't find out $$.

So, how much $$ am I gonna hafta shell out if I want the new stuff?

M
former New Success owner

 

[MarvinK]

Force is supposed to be $1800 (list), Rival is $1200. That doesn't include hubs, since SRAM doesn't make any. I don't know what list price is on Campy or Shimano, but you can buy the same parts set in Ultegra or Centaur for <$700. I noticed velonews completely sidestepped the uncompetitive pricing by saying they couldn't compare prices because Shimano & Campy normally price with hubs (or wheels). All I can say is I hope SRAM street prices are about HALF of the list price... otherwise they'll be a joke.

Here's data to support my concerns:

SRAM Force: $1800 (list)
SRAM Rival: $1200 (list)

Prices from TotalCycling (not list price):
Shimano Dura Ace: $1113
Shimano Ultegra: $711
Shimano 105: $573

Campy Record: $1347
Campy Chorus: $917
Campy Centaur: $605

http://www.totalcycling.com/Products...Name/Groupsets - Road/v/curr/en-US

 

[Swift65]

Somebody will buy the SRAM stuff. The bike world is overflowing with people that pay way too much for stuff that they don't need. Either because they think it will make them faster or they just HAVE to have the new stuff to make them feel better or look cooler.This should get SRAM through the first couple generations and then they can bring the price down.

 

[divve]

When you build a high end road bike you put on Record or, if you are brain damaged, you might put on Dura Ace. But you don't have MTBers going on about their "full" XTR because no one company is seen as making all the best components.

Non-sense. On my current build only my shifters, FD, RD, and Cassette are Campagnolo. The cranks and BB are THM Clavicula, rings Strong Light CT2, and chain KMC X-10SL, brake calipers ZG '06.

I think SRAM is after the OEM market mostly. That's where the big numbers and money is.

 

[rogger]

Force is supposed to be $1800 (list), Rival is $1200. That doesn't include hubs, since SRAM doesn't make any. I don't know what list price is on Campy or Shimano, but you can buy the same parts set in Ultegra or Centaur for <$700. I noticed velonews completely sidestepped the uncompetitive pricing by saying they couldn't compare prices because Shimano & Campy normally price with hubs (or wheels). All I can say is I hope SRAM street prices are about HALF of the list price... otherwise they'll be a joke.

Here's data to support my concerns:

SRAM Force: $1800 (list)
SRAM Rival: $1200 (list)

Prices from TotalCycling (not list price):
Shimano Dura Ace: $1113
Shimano Ultegra: $711
Shimano 105: $573

Campy Record: $1347
Campy Chorus: $917
Campy Centaur: $605

http://www.totalcycling.com/Products...Name/Groupsets - Road/v/curr/en-US

List prices for Shimano and Campy are way higher than actual retail prices, my best guess is that for any gruppo retail is 30-40% cheaper than list price. That would put SRAM in roughly the same range as Shimano.

 

[alienator]

Non-sense. On my current build only my shifters, FD, RD, and Cassette are Campagnolo. The cranks and BB are THM Clavicula, rings Strong Light CT2, and chain KMC X-10SL, brake calipers ZG '06.

I think SRAM is after the OEM market mostly. That's where the big numbers and money is.

Me too. My ride has Record FD, RD, brifters; ZG brakes; Cycle Dynamics cassette; KMC X10-SL chain; kack FSA cranks, but the Claviculas are almost done. And the CT2 chainrings are here. Heck, my Powercordz even run through Shimano housings.

I don't know where this idea that mtn bikers are somehow more discriminating came from. Judging from what I've observed, there are just as many mtn bikers running full groups as there are roadies.

 

[MarvinK]

With the exception of cranks (mostly because Shimano is completely clueless about compact), I think the vast majority of users stick with full groups or whatever the OEM specs (cheap out on brakes, etc... upgrade r der to decieve shoppers). Part of the issue is there isn't a lot of compelling 3rd party parts (ie: I love Zero Gravity brakes, but not $300-400 price tags) outside of cranks or wheels. With mountain bikes, there are LOTS of compelling alternatives for most parts.

 

[mbakercad]

Force is supposed to be $1800 (list), Rival is $1200. That doesn't include hubs, since SRAM doesn't make any. I don't know what list price is on Campy or Shimano, but you can buy the same parts set in Ultegra or Centaur for <$700. I noticed velonews completely sidestepped the uncompetitive pricing by saying they couldn't compare prices because Shimano & Campy normally price with hubs (or wheels). All I can say is I hope SRAM street prices are about HALF of the list price... otherwise they'll be a joke.

Here's data to support my concerns:

SRAM Force: $1800 (list)
SRAM Rival: $1200 (list)

Prices from TotalCycling (not list price):
Shimano Dura Ace: $1113
Shimano Ultegra: $711
Shimano 105: $573

Campy Record: $1347
Campy Chorus: $917
Campy Centaur: $605

http://www.totalcycling.com/Products...Name/Groupsets - Road/v/curr/en-US

Pricing on Competitive Cycling website. Not sure if is it MSRP but for sure a more realistic comparison.

Shimano Dura Ace: $1568 (double)
Shimano Ultegra: $1016 (double)
Shimano 105: $841 (double)

Campy Record: $1787 (double carbon crank)
Campy Chorus: $1461 (double carbon crank)
Campy Centaur: $718 (double alloy crank)

 

[Argentius]

Yeah, it's sort of silly to compare full, pre-sale list US retail with prices from a discount overseas e-seller like Totalcycling.

Not that I wouldn't suggest ORDERING from totalcycling, they're great. Just that I'm sure that SRAM won't cost that much, at least next season.

I applaud them for their high target audience, at least, and also think they're smart by highballing the price -- it's easier to tell people "Oh, actually, it's 25% less than we said" than to have unforseen costs and say "Um, so it's 10% more expensive."

 

[MarvinK]

Ya, that does make it look more competitive... and another plug for Centaur being an amazing aftermarket value. I hope SRAM can do better than Campagnolo at getting competitive OEM specs that correspond with the aftermarket pricing. You can't find a retail store Centaur-equipped bike for less than Ultegra... let alone close to 105.

In any case, I think Force will do OK... like someone said, some people will just like something new & cool. Rival, on the other hand, hopefully will get an appearance overhaul before its release... because from the shots on velonews, the finish quality is more like TIAGRA. I'm sure it performs better, but I doubt people will pay more for crappy looking Rival stuff than Ultegra or Centaur.

I picked TotalCycling because they excluded the hubs... some sites I checked included the hubs or left out more than hubs. I'm sure Competitive Cyclist is more in line with retail price. Other more competitively priced US online stores are closer to TotalCycling's prices.... only thing I use that website for is high quality pictures.

Hopefully SRAM will be relatively competitive at all of those stores... and hopefully Rival looks nicer than it does on the web.