[Dajianshan]

I am not a lab scientist, I am more of a science enthusiast from the sidelines. Therefore, I love reading and rereading the endless debate between informed people on value and benefits of stiffness in bike frames.

I figured I would put this link up there:

About frame stiffness - what is stiff?


Any thoughts?

 

[ALIHISGREAT]

What a surprise!

When Giant do the testing.. Giant bikes come out on top... when Velocitie do the testing.. their bikes come out on top!

 

[skepticman]

My experience with owning and test riding a variety of stiff and flexy frames matches these two who think a frame has to have a precise amount of stiffness.

Kirk Frameworks Custom Bicycles - frame flex and bicycle design
A Journey of Discovery, Part 5: Frame Stiffness | Off The Beaten Path

 

[looigi]

A Journey of Discovery, Part 5: Frame Stiffness | Off The Beaten Path

How does one conduct a double-blind test of bike frames?

 

[danl1]

How does one conduct a double-blind test of bike frames?

You could pay for their article and find out; it involves paint. Not too tricky, really.

Here's another version:

Magnificent 7

 

[SystemShock]

I'm sorry, but I'm still kinda laughing at the thread title.

"Stiffer Than Thou: the Science and Pseudoscience of Being Stiff" was perhaps an unfortunate choice of words. :lol:

 

[stevesbike]

the fact that velocite's numbers come from their own tests and are 2x the values of most other frames is a pretty strong indicator that the testing protocols were different. GIGO.

The test doesn't have to be double-blind. It just has to be done by an independent party (like Tour).

 

[Dajianshan]

I think what is more interesting than the test results, is how bicycle marketing has gotten to the point of simply quantifying a frame's stiffness as a proxy for qualitative performance.

Stiff = Better/High-Performance/Fast

The idea of a stiffer frame utilizing more energy for speed or whatever. It becomes a cockfight for arbitrary stiffness. I have recently ridden with a few industry types who, while professionally participating in the marketing of stiffer is better, privately admit to it being a lot of cooked up marketing BS that seems to do a great job selling bikes.

The scene at Taipei Cycle:

 

[looigi]

You could pay for their article and find out; it involves paint. Not too tricky, really. ...

So the frames were identical enough that using the same paint made them indistinguishable to the riders and those collecting the data? Certainly sounds possible given the right choice of frames I guess.

 

[skepticman]

a lot of cooked up marketing BS that seems to do a great job selling bikes.

The story is similar with lighter and aero shaped frames. For the average recreational rider, and even many recreational racers, it isn't going to make a significant difference. If I am a stronger rider, I will drop others no matter which bike I ride. Perfect example: on a recent weekend group road ride I rode a cross bike with 37c tires with a little over 50 psi. I easily stayed with people on skinny tired road bikes on the flats and out-climbed almost everyone.

 

[designair]

the fact that velocite's numbers come from their own tests and are 2x the values of most other frames is a pretty strong indicator that the testing protocols were different. GIGO.

The test doesn't have to be double-blind. It just has to be done by an independent party (like Tour).

I would agree with Steve. I am familiar with the manufacturer for Velocite. I have a frameset from this same manufacturer and my stiffness data is similar to the Magnus

My frames BB is 200% stiffer than a SuperSix, not believing it.

 

[danl1]

I think what is more interesting than the test results, is how bicycle marketing has gotten to the point of simply quantifying a frame's stiffness as a proxy for qualitative performance.

Stiff = Better/High-Performance/Fast

The idea of a stiffer frame utilizing more energy for speed or whatever. It becomes a cockfight for arbitrary stiffness. I have recently ridden with a few industry types who, while professionally participating in the marketing of stiffer is better, privately admit to it being a lot of cooked up marketing BS that seems to do a great job selling bikes.

Yep. Superlatives are easier to sell than optimizations. Unfortunately, reality is about the latter.

 

[Kerry Irons]

I am not a lab scientist, I am more of a science enthusiast from the sidelines. Therefore, I love reading and rereading the endless debate between informed people on value and benefits of stiffness in bike frames. Any thoughts?

More manufacturers need to take advantage of PFM Technology (TM). With PFM in your frame, your tires, your inner tubes, your wheels, your bearings, etc. you can simply ignore physics and blow the competition out of the water. PFM, it's what is.

(Pure Effing Magic available from PFM Inc. Also makers of Brown 25 (Google Groove Tube).

 

[Dajianshan]

Derivatives of the old FM028.