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need some help with supplements. I have tried many over the years and have yet to find one that produces a noticable improvement. I ride about 100-120 miles per week with most being the normal club race. I also typically carb load the day before and still have the power bar and carb drink the day of. during the hard rides, especially the hills, my legs just get the burn quicker than what my fitness level and amount of riding should allow. Also on the hard flat pulls in the 26-28 range I just cant keep it going for long before my legs crap out. is there a supplement that someone can recommend that help with performance or trick my body in to thinking it doesnt hurt as badly as it really does.
 

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Thanks to supplements Americans have some of the most expensive pee in the world. Sorry, I don't think there is a pill you can take.

"Also on the hard flat pulls in the 26-28 range I just cant keep it going for long before my legs crap out." Sounds like you are indeed a human.
 

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I'm a big fan of Perpetuem by Hammer Nutrition. It is packed full of just about everything you need and is easy on the system. It is about all I need to race with and I hardly take a gu pack anymore. I've done both short and long races (12 hour) without any cramping using Perpetuem.
 

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Some supplement advice

smbrum said:
need some help with supplements. I have tried many over the years and have yet to find one that produces a noticable improvement. I ride about 100-120 miles per week with most being the normal club race. I also typically carb load the day before and still have the power bar and carb drink the day of. during the hard rides, especially the hills, my legs just get the burn quicker than what my fitness level and amount of riding should allow. Also on the hard flat pulls in the 26-28 range I just cant keep it going for long before my legs crap out. is there a supplement that someone can recommend that help with performance or trick my body in to thinking it doesnt hurt as badly as it really does.
Here is some good guidance on sports supplements:

From the Feb 24, 2003 issue of VeloNews - some interesting comments from Christiane Ayotte, head of Canada's leading anti doping lab. Supplements' "claimed actions, efficiency, or potency have not been thoroughly investigated by controlled clinical studies and remain for the most part anecdotal." "athletes are targeted by the sport nutritional industry by very aggressive and efficient marketing, but for the vast majority of the products . . , the scientific proofs supporting their claims are not there. But the athletes believe: It is more on the side of faith than facts. One only listens to what he wants and becomes deaf, blind to all logical arguments." (Remember that the US supplements industry effectively lobbied congress several years ago and prevented the US FDA from regulating the industry except in cases of human safety. Supplements imported from many countries are even less regulated.)

A recent German study analyzed 600 samples of nutritional supplements and found anabolic steroids in 20% at levels that could result in a positive dope test. None of these supplements were labeled as containing steroids. In the US, supplements are not tested or regulated, and need not be labeled as containing steroids. Add to this the fact that no good (controlled, double blind) studies have shown benefits of supplementation for athletes over a balanced diet. When an active person consumes a balanced diet, it is extremely easy to get the required nutritional components. This is because the high level of activity requires a large food intake, and so the nutrients come along automatically.

Per Dr. Arnie Baker: It is often said that Americans have the most expensive urine in the world. Vitamin and mineral supplement sales are big business. Many athletes take scores of pills daily. Companies try to distinguish themselves from others by claiming that their formulations are superior. There is very little evidence that any supplements are worth it.

In his book, Nutrition For Sports:
---Sodium to a maximum concentration of 1,000 milligrams per quart (liter) may improve the rate of rehydration as well as prevent hyponatremia. There is no evidence that other minerals in hydration products improve performance.
---There is no evidence that proprietary substances in sports drinks confer any advantages over readily available nutrients.
 

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supplement advice


The best supplement is called "Food".
(or Meth?)
 

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Glucosamine Chondroiton MSM and Mega-Man.
Regardless of what the food-only camp says, I do not have
the nutritional expertise or the time to personally tabulate
my dietary vitiman and mineral intake, just too much work.
Sensible multi-vitiman insures that I am getting the correct amounts.
Does most of it pass in urine? Of course it does. But what of
the trace amounts of less plentiful components, i.e., selenium, etc.
They are needed in present in cells and I just am not sure what foods
I might have to seek out and eat to ensure it's in my diet.
Lastly, and most importantly, I feel better when I take the multi.
It is not my imagination, there is a real difference and it is not just
'psychological'.
 

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i think that the obvious starting point is do a blood test... any supplement is only effective if you are defficient.. the body produces some creatine, some vitamins etc the rest from diet... this may explain variances in some ppls experience in supplements...

best bet is blood test to see if a supplement could be of any value..
 

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Exerpt from "Nutrition for Endurance (Finding another gear)" by Dr. Bill Misner (Hammer Nutrition)


Getting the right amount of water
On the average, an athlete loses a liter of fluid/hour of exercise. These perspiration-loss rates may be controlled or lessened by acclimation and training. The human body, when fit, will store enough muscle glycogen to provide energy for approximately 90 minutes of aerobic exercise. This extra glycogen storage through training helps balance the hydration equation. As muscle glycogen is burned to create energy for movement, water is released within the cells as metabolic by-product and is diverted to cool the body through skin-surface sweat.

Shepherd and Kavanagh (1978) found that during a marathon, competing runners released an average of 2 liters of perspiration through the process of burning muscle glycogen stores. If an athlete supplements this glycogen water by taking in 16 ounces of fluids for every hour of exercise, dehydration will normally be avoided in those events which last from three to four hours.

Researchers, however, have recently noted the dangers of too much hydration during events lasting over four hours. Noadkes (1985, 1988) reported that runners who drank too much during ultra-marathons and triathlons developed hyponatremeia (low blood serum). Hyponatremia, it turns out, may be caused by drinking too little or too much.

In ultra events, it is typically the front runners who dehydrate; those in the back of the pack tend to over-hydrate. Both suffer from the same hyponatremic symptoms – one from too little fluid intake and too much sodium loss due to profuse sweating; the other from too much fluid intake with proportionately less sodium loss.

Of the 17 runners who were hospitalized from after the 1985 Comrades ultra-marathon, nine had hyponatremia caused by diluting blood sodium levels with too much water. The tendency to linger at aid stations in a vain attempt to relieve the symptoms of fatigue or heat by drinking too much water is a fault found primarily in the runners who populate the back of the pack (Noakes 1990).

Overcoming the Heat
Air temperature and humidity are factors for overcoming heat related stress that one must consider along with fitness and acclimatization. When external temperature and humidity both exceed 70%-degrees, or when either temperature or humidity exceeds 80%-degrees, an athlete may do better to slow down his/her pace, expose as much skin as possible to cooling breezes, and take frequent walk breaks.

Some believe that simple mesh shirts are the coolest (Noakes 1990) but wearing no shirt at all will reduce core temperature 1º in the first mile of running, compared to wearing any type of shirt).

Increased body mass also increases metabolic heat production. A 100kg runner puts out twice the heat of a 50kg runner. No wonder the smaller, thinner runners tend to do better in the heat, year after year.

What replacement fluids should contain
Body fluid losses include both water and electrolytes. Electrolytes are chemical substances which, when dissolved in the water within the body or lost in our perspiration, are the missing electrically-charged particles, or ions, necessary for cellular metabolism. They help the body’s intra-/extra- cellular chemical balance and assist in the neuro-metabolic expenditure of caloric energy.

Athletes who are more fit and more acclimatized to heat lose less fluids and electrolytes. The rate of loss through sweat for a fit marathon runner includes a sodium loss of 2,000mg in that liter of fluid lost each hour (2kg/liter/hour). The average American athlete stores an excess of 8,000mg of dietary sodium within body tissues.

Losses per 1 hour of exercise:
Electrolyte: Fit/Acclimatized Athlete Unfit/Unacclimatized Athelete
Sodium 1800mg 3,500mg
Chloride 900mg 1,400mg
Potassium 100mg 200mg
Magnesium100mg 100mg
Water 1.0 liter 1.0 liter
(Interpolate the quantites under the appropriate headings; the format won't post as should be)

When one considers the possible losses during a 4-hour competitive event, it becomes obvious that maintenance of a balanced electrolyte supplement and moderate amounts of liquid are absolutely necessary both for survival and optimal performance in the heat.

Dose Recommendations per hour for beyond a three-hour performance
Calcium 250 to 500 mg
L-tyrosine 50 to 100 mg
Magnesium 125 to 250 mg
Manganese 5 to 20 mg
Potassium 99 to 198 mg
Pyridoxine HCL (B-6) 20 to 40 mg
Other formulations worth your consideration would increase sodium levels, if not raised to the point where they become problematic and cause negative side effects, more sodium may serve to assist electrolyte depletion and performance depletion in hyperthermic circumstances.

Calcium is the most abundant mineral in the human body; about 2.85 lbs. are retained in the average person. When blood volumes run low, the body extracts calcium from the bones in a process that usually takes more time than even endurance competition typically allows. A constant blood calcium level is required for a normal rhythmic heartbeat, healthy nerve transmission, and strong muscle contractions.

Deficiency in blood calcium levels during endurance events may produce high blood pressure, muscle cramps, and weakness. During exercise, energy is produced by the conversion of fatty acids and amino acids with enzymes which are calcium-dependent.

Magnesium accompanies calcium in an ideal ratio of 1-part magnesium to 2-parts calcium. It works like this: when calcium flows into working muscle cells, the muscle contracts; then when calcium leaves and magnesium replaces it, the muscle relaxes. Deficiency of magnesium contributes to muscle cramps, tremors, sleep disturbances and, in some cases, convulsive disorders. Many enzymatic reactions necessary for fuel conversion to muscular energy occur with the aid and presence of magnesium substrates.

Potassium is the chief cation, or positively charged ion within all muscle cells. It is necessary to obtain the lowest optimal concentration and balance of sodium. Potassium deficiency symptoms are nausea, vomiting, muscle weakness, muscle spasm, cramping and rapid heart rate.

Sodium is the chief cation outside the muscle cells. As previously noted, American dietary practices cause the average person to carry a reserve of 8,000 mg of sodium in his/her extracellular tissues. During endurance events, 3 to 4 hours are necessary to deplete this reserve of sodium. Deficiency usually begins to occur after 4 hours and may produce symptoms of abnormal heartbeat, muscle twitching and hypoventilation.

Chloride is a relative anion that must accompany sodium in the extracellular tissues. This mineral is absolutely necessary to maintaining the osmotic tension in both blood and extracellular fluids.

Manganese is necessary in trace amounts for optimal muscle cell enzyme reactions, permitting conversion of fatty acids and protein into energy. Research shows that Manganese deficiency plays a vital role in glucose tolerance factors, free-radical buildup from intense exercise and nerve function disorders, especially in older athletes (Balch 1990).

Pyridoxine HCL (Vitamin B-6) is a co-enzyme that plays a role in 60 known enzymatic reactions involving metabolism of carbohydrates, fats and protein. This water soluble B-vitamin actively maintains the sodium-potassium balance and assists in the formation of red blood cells.

L-tryosine, an amino acid, has been added recently to the electrolyte formula. When blood plasma deficiencies occur during extreme endurance events, low thyroid and low adrenal production result. The lack of adrenal and thyroid glandular secretions are due to endurance exercise-induced L-tyrosine depletion, which may be observed by measuring decreases in blood and catecholamines during such exercise.

These glandular secretions are necessary for maintaining the rate of metabolism. Deficiency of the amino acid L-tryosine in blood serum appears first as depression, later anger and then despondency, degenerating gradually into total despair. "

Trace Minerals manufactures a good Electrolyte product called Electrolyte Stamina in both the powder-pak form and also Caplets...
http://www.cptips.com/muspain.htm
Remember the magic word: Supplement... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietary_supplement
 

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Um, I would add that fish oil (the quality stuff) has a great effect on my creaky knees. Call it placebo if you like, but chondroitin / glucosamine never worked for me, and fish oil does.

B-vitamins are well documented for support of heavy training loads. The problem with US RDA's is they're designed for sedentary adults, and the standard is not "excellent fitness" but "lack of disease".

I take fish oil, a multi (not every day, but several x per week) and a B-multi when training hard.
 

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the question is... does lactic acid build up really need to be stopped? post peer reviewed references please. the data for this crap really isnt there. one can look at orac (measure of anti-oxidant effect) and other end points, but outside a test tube most of this stuff is not well understood or studied. a thoughtful, low fat, low carb (not atkins low), high veggie diet will do way more than any supplements.
 

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lets debug this a bit:
1st study listed: (n)s were 13-14 for each group. this yields a crappy p value and means that the results are not much more than pure chance
2nd study even worse, 15 subjects total
3rd study, from their own abstract: "No significant group effects were found."

none of these are good studies, sorry to bust your balls a bit. in order for these studies to have "statistical power" (be meaningful) they would need (n)s of at least 200. b-ala may be helpful but none of these studies really show that. these were likely small projects done by students and should not be taken as evidence, they also likely suffer from some study biases that cant be controlled.
 
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