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Matnlely Dregaend
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According to Greg:

Greg LeMond: Miracles in cycling still don't exist | Cyclingnews.com

"The great physiologist Frederick Portoleau showed that when Froome accelerates hard, his heart only shows small variations. This is troubling. What bothers me is hearing some technicians say it's science fiction, which is a kind of misinformation. Others make us believe they are ahead of the best scientists, the famous Team Sky marginal gains! What bollocks! There are no new methodologies. That is wrong. In this area too, miracles do not exist."
 

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As much as I hate Sky (the team, not necessarily the riders) and respect Greg, I'm begrudgingly beginning to like Froome. I hope Greg is wrong on this one, because Froome has finally ridden the Tour like a champion and not a robot.

That said, I won't be crushed either way.
 

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Its hard to figure out what Lemond was saying, he was simply too oblique. He doesn't come right out and say he is suspicious that Sky/Froome are doping, but leaves that as a possible conclusion.
Lemond mainly seems like a decent and reasonable guy, certainly by comparison to his nemesis Armstrong... and he has gotten a bad deal over the years, but he also seems a little imprecise in his thinking and speaking.
I wish he and/or the story was a little more clear on what he was trying to say.
 

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Forever a Student
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According to Greg:

Greg LeMond: Miracles in cycling still don't exist | Cyclingnews.com

"The great physiologist Frederick Portoleau showed that when Froome accelerates hard, his heart only shows small variations. This is troubling. What bothers me is hearing some technicians say it's science fiction, which is a kind of misinformation. Others make us believe they are ahead of the best scientists, the famous Team Sky marginal gains! What bollocks! There are no new methodologies. That is wrong. In this area too, miracles do not exist."

There's a reason why training by heartrate doesn't work and this is it. This isn't just Froome, it's all humans. Go try it yourself.

When you accelerate hard from a normal pace, your heartrate will NOT skyrocket or go shooting up or anything even close. It'll barely move if anything. There is a significant lag/delay between when you are executing your effort and when your heatrate picks up to show that.

This is as basic as heartrate understanding gets for cyclists.
 

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Long time fan and rider, but in the last few years I just cannot bring myself to watch this tour or any other pro-cycling event on TV anymore. These guys are supposed to be clean, in theory that would mean a net decrease in average speed would occur. I just don't see that happening. After getting suckered by Lance etal, I just don't have it in me to sit and believe the 'amazing miracles' by team Sky and same old rhetoric spewing from team management.

For me, cycling has become a cool and fun sport for myself. The legitimacy of the pro's in my eyes is zero. I guess in years to come we will wait and see what the overall fans of the sport do, but from what I have heard so far viewership is down.
 

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Long time fan and rider, but in the last few years I just cannot bring myself to watch this tour or any other pro-cycling event on TV anymore. These guys are supposed to be clean, in theory that would mean a net decrease in average speed would occur. I just don't see that happening. After getting suckered by Lance etal, I just don't have it in me to sit and believe the 'amazing miracles' by team Sky and same old rhetoric spewing from team management.

For me, cycling has become a cool and fun sport for myself. The legitimacy of the pro's in my eyes is zero. I guess in years to come we will wait and see what the overall fans of the sport do, but from what I have heard so far viewership is down.
I'm in a similar boat. I think if it wasn't for all the doping of the past twenty years coming to light in the last few years, then I could believe in a clean peloton, but every time we're told the peloton is clean (and the amazing performances are due to cancer recovery, high cadence, marginal gains or whatever), it turns out that it's not the case.

I still watch the racing, but I watch it like it's WWE. I know it's just a show, and not real.
 

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There's a reason why training by heartrate doesn't work and this is it. This isn't just Froome, it's all humans. Go try it yourself.

When you accelerate hard from a normal pace, your heartrate will NOT skyrocket or go shooting up or anything even close. It'll barely move if anything. There is a significant lag/delay between when you are executing your effort and when your heatrate picks up to show that.

This is as basic as heartrate understanding gets for cyclists.
If you and I get that I'm pretty certain LeMond does as well. With out more context from LeMond it's more LeMond not being able to convey what he means. He's a bit like Christian Vande Veld in his Eurosport commentary...that is a bit disjointed. Not unlike my posts:)
 

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There's a reason why training by heartrate doesn't work and this is it. This isn't just Froome, it's all humans. Go try it yourself.

When you accelerate hard from a normal pace, your heartrate will NOT skyrocket or go shooting up or anything even close. It'll barely move if anything. There is a significant lag/delay between when you are executing your effort and when your heatrate picks up to show that.
What Greg and Portoleau are pointing at is that his HR does not respond in a way consistent with the effort. The HR lag will be there, but the HR will change in response to changes in workload. Power is an indication of the work you do, HR is an indication the body's response to it.

If Froome's HR does not change consistent with a meaningful change in power output (level/duration), then there is cause for concern.

HR is still a valuable training metric. It can provide data that power will never be able to, because it's looking at the equation from a completely different angle. Lots of upper level cyclists train by HR and not power for this very reason. I certainly prefer training by power, but I won't discard the data points HR provides.

Greg can be rambling at times, but he is certainly not uninformed.
 

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What Greg and Portoleau are pointing at is that his HR does not respond in a way consistent with the effort. The HR lag will be there, but the HR will change in response to changes in workload. Power is an indication of the work you do, HR is an indication the body's response to it.

If Froome's HR does not change consistent with a meaningful change in power output (level/duration), then there is cause for concern.

HR is still a valuable training metric. It can provide data that power will never be able to, because it's looking at the equation from a completely different angle. Lots of upper level cyclists train by HR and not power for this very reason. I certainly prefer training by power, but I won't discard the data points HR provides.

Greg can be rambling at times, but he is certainly not uninformed.
I agree. Greg knows how the body responds in cycling races. After his Lance experience I highly doubt he will publicly come out and accuse anybody of doping without absolute proof, so I think he's done his best to let the public know he has he doubts about Sky.
 

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I agree. Greg knows how the body responds in cycling races. After his Lance experience I highly doubt he will publicly come out and accuse anybody of doping without absolute proof, so I think he's done his best to let the public know he has he doubts about Sky.
I think this sums it up well. I have my doubts as well and its nothing more than cynicism and the eye test for me. Its sad that I can't really enjoy a gritty performance like Froome had yesterday without thinking in the back of my mind its too good to be true.
 

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cough, Movistar
 

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I have my doubts as well and its nothing more than cynicism and the eye test for me.
Really, the eye test is all there is. Doping controls obviously don't catch much of anything, neither does the passport. People going from mid pack to riding on the front day after day in a GT, is probably a better indicator of an eventual doping penalty than either of the above.
 

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Lemond had his day, and that day was 25 years ago.

He is not a scientist.

I have a neighbour who is a neurologist and one who is an oncologist. I see the piles of papers, journals they have to plough through. They both talk of how much has changed since they entered their fields. And they both complain about not being able to keep up with things. I imagine sports medicine and nutrition is changing as well.

It may be that GL does not understand some things and makes assumptions.


 

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The human body has not evolved significantly in the last 25 years. Nutritional science seems to be cyclical in nature (butter, anyone?) and prone to fads that often are debunked. Sports medicine (the non-pharmaceutical part) has actually made measured and steady progress since Greg's day, but nothing has come out that has been a complete game changer. The doping revolution of the '90s and '00s probably stalled progress in that regard, because "there's a pill of that". Little things here or there, changes in training and recovery, "marginal gains" things have been about the extent of it. Evolutionary, not revolutionary, and not that hard to keep up with.

You can bet Greg is informed, because during his feud with Lance he had to be. He was also known to have an interest in sports science even as a rider, so he's not ignorant.

Again, I hope Froome is clean. I hope the reason for his dominance is that he a very, very good rider and Sky's huge budget has bought the very best to allow him to win. I still hate Sky, and wish there was a salary cap to level the playing field. I can't tell you how happy I am to see AG2R have a rider on the GC podium. I'm loving the plucky nature of lower-budget teams like Dimension Data mixing it up on the big stage. You want a level playing field? Start with the salaries. Then we'll see if Sky's "marginal gains" are the reason for their dominance and not their "maximal budget".

Greg can be inarticulate at times, but don't underestimate his knowledge.

Speaking of Greg's day, did anyone see that Bernie Tapie is back in the news?
 

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For the young ones here. Small world.

Mountainous landforms Mountain range Social group Collar Highland

The La Vie Claire team was created in 1984 by Bernard Tapie and directed by Paul Köchli. The team included five-time Tour de France winner Bernard Hinault, and three-time winner, Greg Lemond, as well as Andrew Hampsten and the Canadian Steve Bauer. With Hinault winning the Tour in 1985, and LeMond winning in 1986, plus winning the team trophy both years, La Vie Claire cemented their place in cycling team history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Vie_Claire
 

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Lemond had his day, and that day was 25 years ago.

He is not a scientist.

I have a neighbour who is a neurologist and one who is an oncologist. I see the piles of papers, journals they have to plough through. They both talk of how much has changed since they entered their fields. And they both complain about not being able to keep up with things. I imagine sports medicine and nutrition is changing as well.

It may be that GL does not understand some things and makes assumptions.



Yes, sports science has changed a lot. However, if this is the answer, then it would be all the teams that would have benefited, and not just Sky. The sports science info is not Sky's property, but the result of many scientists at various institutions around the world.

Surely if Ritchie Porte had learned how to eat and train better at Sky, then he'd have told TJ and TJ would have been able to keep up with Froome's helpers.
 

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Yes, sports science has changed a lot. However, if this is the answer, then it would be all the teams that would have benefited, and not just Sky.
That is a rational view but not all cycling teams are rational and/or willing to adapt to new developments, e.g. the comments made about Rolland's previous training regime at Europcar when he joined Cannondale, Etixx "banning" Cav from the track thereby destroying his sprint speed before he moved to Dimension Data and so on.

Surely if Ritchie Porte had learned how to eat and train better at Sky, then he'd have told TJ and TJ would have been able to keep up with Froome's helpers.
By his TdF performance, it looks like Porte did learn at Sky and retained that knowledge. Whether he passed it on or whether others listened is another matter.
 

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Lots of topics bouncing back and forth in here...

Regarding doping in the Peloton in general and the "amazing" performances we've seen in the sport. I'm under the impression that current riders are far slower than their peers in the juiced age. Is this not correct? I'm relatively new to the sport, only following for the last 3 years or so, but I know that at some point, I saw some study showing that the fastest cyclists from the last few TDF's had times that were minutes slower than the fastest guys during Lance's era.... so while it certainly seems like Team Sky is putting on a dominant performance in comparison to their competitors, they really aren't when looking through the lens of comparison to the Lance era.

Regarding Froome's HR... where is the data? Lemond is making reference to some physiologist that says Froome's HR is not jumping, but no one has seen or shown that actual data. I'd like to see it. I will say this, based on my own experience as a TT rider, when you're on the limit, HR doesn't really vary very much... For example, I'll do a 20 min. TT effort and my HR will be right at 180, holding 275w... at the end, in the last km or so, I'll start to just ignore the power meter and simply empty the tank, go all in, so to speak... looking back at the power data, I'll be put out 330+ watts and my HR will go up a handful of points... maybe 186 or 190. It hardly even registers as a spike in HR... don't get me wrong, I can feel it. it hurts, it burns and I can't sustain that, but its not much of a jump because my HR is already so high. Its my impression that Team Sky climbs as if they're doing a team TT... Putting guys on the front, setting a ridiculous tempo. Guys that have been training for these types of efforts. They have 4 or 5 guys ready to go deep and hold that effort which means that if anyone wants to drop them, that have to go above that effort, which is basically already at the limit. I'm not a Froome fan-boy, not really even a fan, but I also don't think its fair to condemn someone as a cheater simply because they're winning. I don't think the peloton is clean. I'm sure there are people doping, just as there are in any other sport, but I do believe that cycling does more to catch dopers than any other sport and I do believe that the efforts they've made have cleaned it up significantly. I think evidence of just how clean the peloton is now can be seen in the last week of this year's TDF. Why were there no attacks in the Alps, in the final stages? because everyone was tired.
 

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You'd have to compare your FTP and maximum HR with Froome's to make any sort of comparison there. And your 20min TT effort is nothing at all like a GT alpine stage, sitting in the draft of Sky domestiques.

I haven't seen the data, and I'm not so interested in the subject to try to dig it up and analyze it for myself. I think healthy skepticism is the proper attitude to take, given the revelations of the last 7 years. Not only in cycling, but across sports in general. They're still trying, and many are still going undetected.

I hope Froome is clean. I hope Brailsford gets popped. That would make me giggle.
 
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