Terribly Long, Self-Indulgent Weight Loss Thread

Randy99CL · Apr 15, 2013

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The point of this thread is that I’m going to take my 2013 Trek CrossRip from 24.5 to less than 20 pounds, and write about it. My actual goal is to take 5 pounds off the bike. When it is complete, mine may be the lightest CrossRip on the planet simply because no one else is dumb enough to pour this amount of money into an entry level bike.
I will be upgrading pretty much everything but the frame and fork.

I’m just a mad customizer and always modify my things to fit my needs and wants. My cars, computers, audio/video system, motorcycles, firearms; I’m a tech geek that can’t stand to leave anything in stock form.

I actually do have a budget and limit on what I’m willing to spend so there will be no titanium bolts or other trinkets that cost a fortune and save a few grams. I’m also not completely senseless; I’m not throwing full Dura Ace or Super Record on a 100 series aluminum frame.

The great and fun thing about doing this is that I will build exactly the machine I want at this time. Exactly; every single piece will be selected by function, quality, weight and price.

Just getting back into cycling after a 20-year layoff.
I’ve never owned a sub-20 bike; my lugged-steel tourer was 21 and the rigid steel mountain bike was about 24 with suspension fork; after I’d modified them.
So yes, I’ve done this before and no, I’m not smart enough to have learned a lesson from the first time.

When I walked into my LBS in December I wanted to buy a trainer, not a new bike. But I spied the new Trek CrossRip and realized that the one bike could do pretty much everything I wanted to do on two wheels.
I’ve always wanted to try disc brakes; I liked the triple chainrings and loved the flat black look.
Decided it wasn’t worth the extra $150 for the Sora 2x9 and gray paint on the elite model.
Thought about it for two weeks, ordered it and picked up the new bike three days later.

Some of you are thinking that it would have been cheaper in the long run to buy a higher model with better components and you are absolutely right. Trek does make good cross bikes spec’d out much better than mine but I look at this as a road bike with relaxed geometry and disc brakes so the Cronus and Ion really aren’t what I wanted.

The dealer adjusted the 50cm size perfectly to me. I was blessed with a sunny, less-frigid January 12[SUP]th[/SUP] when I rode it home. Threw it on the trainer and love(d) it!

Okay, I think this is big enough for a first post. I hope you don’t mind if I make this something like a blog and add to it frequently. I’ll not purposely drag it out.
I have all the replacement parts in hand (except the wheels) and just started removing and replacing things today.
I’ll take my time and have it assembled and tuned within a couple of days.

And please, if any of you have negative comments or want to ego-trip on me…I don’t really care to hear it. You may think I’m the biggest fool and worst writer in the world (and that’s ok with me) but I don’t need to know that so why don’t you keep your negative opinion to yourself, thanks.

I’m writing this to be friendly and to add my small bit to that huge pool of wonderful knowledge that we have here on this forum.

Randy

AJ88V · Apr 15, 2013

Very interested in hearing a play-by-play account of your journey, especially if you're going to do it in a value-oriented approach.

Cheapest and easiest bang for the buck will be titanium skewers. About $20 and you'll likely knock off about 120+ grams (that's over 1/4 pound!).

The Cutter carbon rail seat is another bargain for the weight gained.

Wheels will be next I imagine.

And it's surprising how much weight you can save with tires and tubes.

Randy99CL · Apr 17, 2013

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I bought this Trek CrossRip because I think it will be good for road work, commuting, gravel trails and light singletrack, even loaded touring. I was already considering building a light road wheelset, with 25s, and swap them out depending on where I’d be riding.

Need a helmet, shoes and pedals, cyclometer; already don’t care for the saddle. Went online to Nashbar (favorite store 20 years ago) and couldn’t help but look at the parts and think about what I would like to improve on the bike.
Spotted the digital scales at Harbor Freight, bought two, and I was off!

At first I only wanted to upgrade a couple of things: nicer saddle, carbon seatpost to smooth the ride, lighter tires. I’m not in love with the 2303 levers (and the downshift button) but the prices for even Tiagra levers (and chain and cassette) are unworkable.

As soon as I’d gotten the new bike home I weighed it. Digital bathroom scale, me holding bike compared to me without bike = 24.5 pounds. To my mind not a total porker but not as light as I’d like.

I was surprised when I took a magnet to the crankset and discovered that all three chainrings are steel!
The best thing about getting an entry-level bike is that all the components are heavy; it is relatively easy to take off weight.

I took a few parts off to weigh them and tried looking up the weights of some that I didn’t want to remove.
Crankset with square-taper BB is 1314g! Geez!
Complete front wheel with rotor - 1895g.
Rear wheel - 2310g.
Front tire weighs 543g, tube is 127.
Saddle is 306g.
Stem isn’t horrible at 175g.
Bolt on skewers, which I prefer, aren’t bad at 75g.
Bontrager website lists the bars at 326 and seatpost at 296g.

Couldn’t help myself; ignored lessons from my past and started researching lighter, better parts and adding up the numbers. Started to get excited when I realized I could get the bike under 20 pounds without too much trouble!

I spent the next few weeks cruising a dozen online retailers, making up a parts list and dreaming about how cool the bike would be if I pulled the trigger.

Things snowballed and at some point I realized that I would only be keeping the original frame, fork and headset.
Any sane person wouldn’t find any financial sense in this; it would cost a lot of money and I’d have a lot of cheap parts laying around that wouldn’t return much if I sold them.

Another factor came into play when I mentioned to my dealer that I’d use the bike around town every day, riding to the library, coffee shop, and grocery store. He interrupted me to say that there are a lot of experienced bike thieves in this area and my Trek would be a big target, damn!

Then the big light bulb lit in my head…if I will only be using the frame and fork, why not buy another, transfer the take-offs and build a second bike! I actually laughed out loud when this idea hit me.
I found the Nashbar alloy touring frame and carbon fork (with disc tabs) for a little over $200. On amazon it’s about $45 for an adapter to hold a rear disc caliper.

I’d found a workable solution! I’ll transfer the old parts to build a tourer/trainer/around town/beater bike that I won’t be afraid to leave chained outside the library for a few hours every day.
I decided to go for it; the expense is tolerable considering I’ll have two bikes in the end.

Randy99CL · Apr 17, 2013

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Time to start buying!
I should mention here that I don’t really care for fleabay even though the deals are amazing sometimes. I’m buying everything new.

Started ordering parts, many from Nashbar. They have decent prices and with the 20% off sales or free shipping deals I really saved.

FSA Gossamer triple crankset with external-bearing MegaExo BB, $90-20% =$72. The ad copy was wrong, the middle and inner rings are steel, dammit. Should be stiffer than the old one, weighs 1087g, saves me 8 ounces and more if I switch to alloy rings.

My favorite old saddle was a San Marco SA601 that had Ti rails and rubber suspension. I like saddles that soften the biggest hits so I read the (very good) reviews on the San Marco SKN and ordered one. Listed weight of 193 but actual of 202g saved almost 4 oz. $65-20%=$52. Beautiful saddle, I love it so far.

Used to have Look cleats on my road shoes and hated trying to walk in them. Less expensive SPD pedals are all pretty heavy. Decided on Crank Bros Candy 2s and really like them. Not too heavy at 322g and rebuildable. $61 from amazon.

I was frustrated that even Tiagra levers (I’d prefer 105), 10-speed cassette and chain were over $300.
Things took off when I learned of MicroSHIFT; downloaded their catalog and emailed the importer. He gave me a price of $240 for Bona (their Ultegra level) triple shifters, both derailleurs and cables.
But another thought had been eating at me; since I would be building a separate touring bike I might not really need triple chainrings on this one anymore. So I switched horses and ordered the Arsis (their highest, DA level) 2x10 shifters, FD, RD and Jagwire teflon cables for $260 and $16 shipping. Got the set in 7 days shipped all the way from Taiwan.
I’ve not yet removed the 2303 levers to weigh but expect a good loss there. Just the two derailleurs took off 3 ounces.

Now needed yet another crankset, and bought the FSA Energy compact double from Nashbar for $99. Forged, hollow alloy arms, MegaExo BB, machined chainrings and only 801g total; some carbon cranksets aren’t that light! Saved a whopping 513g, over 18 ounces!

My hardest decision was what to get for handlebars and seatpost. I really wanted carbon for vibration damping but the good stuff; the name brands are over $300 at the best prices I could find.
I settled for some no-name generics from China. I expect that some of you are now writing me off for stupidity but I thought I’d give them a try. They look good, thick but light and I can’t see any obvious flaws.
Here’s the thing though: I’m taking an old stem and bolting it into a heavy vise at my brothers’ machine shop and I’m going to see if I can break these things. Hopefully not actually break them, just put enough weight on them and flex them enough that I feel confident that they’re safe. I wonder if the seatpost, mounted horizontally, will hold all my weight. Obviously, if I hear pops and cracks I’ll toss them. Sometime in the near future I’ll write the results of my tests.
Should they withstand my testing, I’ll save over 8 ounces with the bars and seatpost.

I paid less than half the price of an Ultegra cassette by getting the Tiagra 12-28 ($30, amazon) but gained 88g over the SRAM 8-speed that was stock. The Tiagra is chromed, has the ramps and will probably shift pretty well but is all steel with less cut away from the big cogs so it is heavy.
I’ll use this one on the stock wheelset but buy the Ultegra 11-28 for the road wheels later as it is listed as about 90g lighter.
The SRAM 10-speed chain weighs 40g less than the KMC 8-speed on the bike.

I’m taking my time building the bike so don’t have all the numbers yet, but I’ve removed over two pounds so far and expect that number to be around 2.5 after replacing everything I’ve listed.

Randy99CL · Apr 18, 2013

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Upgrading wheels and tires is where big performance gains ensue.
For any newbies that haven’t yet learned; taking weight off your bike anywhere helps a lot but taking weight off your wheels is huuuuugggggge in comparison! With less flywheel effect, lighter wheels accelerate faster, turn quicker and brake harder. You can completely transform a bike with lighter, more responsive wheels and turn a slug into a racer (within reason, of course)!
When cutting weight and upgrading a bike, putting your money into wheels and tires (rotating mass) gains the largest improvement in performance.

This Trek definitely has slug wheels. Stripped, the front wheel with hub, spokes, rim and rim strip weighs 1088g and I estimate the rear to be 1316g. The one tire and tube I weighed are 543 and 127g.
The stock wheels are Formula hubs, 32 straight 14 gauge spokes with brass nips and feel stiff and rugged. The Bontrager H5 cross tires measure 31mm wide across the small side blocks and have Kevlar belts.
This combination is fine for our potholed streets, gravel, dirt and maybe even touring.

But most of the time, my CrossRip will be my disc-braked, relaxed geometry road bike. I even plan to ride my first century this summer so I need me some road wheels!

I’ve always wanted to learn to build wheels and this is my chance.

I saw a link here on RBR for BikeHubStore and like his stuff.
Rotaz disc hubs have a good rep, are light at 385g a set, cost $140 for the pair and are rebuildable. I like the Kinlin xr19w rims at 406g and $43 each, Sapim Lasers are $1.18 each (with alloy nips) and weigh 308g for a set of 64. Do the math; we’re talkin’ a 1500 gram wheelset for just over $300! Stock wheels are 2400 grams, so WOW, I just removed almost two pounds right where it makes the most difference!!!!!

And I’m not done yet; paid $20 each for Vittoria Zaffiro Pro 25s that weigh 260g each and their Ultralite tubes are 105g for another 21.5 ounce savings.
At this point I’ve taken 3.3 pounds of weight off the wheels; an astonishing amount.

I’ll likely try latex tubes and drop another couple of ounces.

Still need rotors. The brand name 160 (front) and 140mm (rear) sizes are usually $25+ each everywhere I’ve looked. The funny thing is that I can get Hayes CX-5 caliper and rotor sets for just over $45 each on amazon so that’s what I’ll do. The CX-5s review as well as Avid BB-7s, weigh about the same and look good with a smoked-polished finish. I’ll put them on the Trek and transfer the stock BB-5s to the tourer.
You may be wondering why I’ve not mentioned lightweight rotors. I was considering them until I ran into an article about a cyclist who’d crashed on a downhill (5 broken ribs, ouch!) because his rotors had overheated and braking failed. He had the Ashima rotors and the pics show that the front had actually gotten hot enough to turn blue in spots.
I’ve decided it is not worth trying to save weight in the rotors; it seems to me that having more mass in the braking area might help even out the heat buildup and give it more surface area to dissipate.
I also understand that those light rotors with big holes wear the pads faster (and unevenly) so I’ll just stick with the regulars for now.

Just to throw this out there, I’m still considering other rims. I was fascinated to read of Velocity Aerohead OC (off-center) rims and would like to try them both front and rear. I found them for about $50 a rim and they weigh a little more than the Kinlins, but as soon as I decided to order them everyone ran out of stock. I think they are now discontinued.
Instead, Velocity now makes the A23 (23mm wide) in the OC form but they cost around $80 a rim.
Edit: To add a little more info here, on the rear hub the spokes are offset on both sides because of the disc. The difference from center is 3.5mm and the OC rim is offset 4mm so the spokes will probably be the same length. The tension on both sides can be the same, what a great idea!
The front won't be as equal but still better than with a non-OC rim.

I’m looking forward to building my first wheelset. I’ve read many articles and watched videos so don’t expect any problems. My dealer is an excellent wheelbuilder and I’ll have him check them when they’re finished.

I’ve not ordered the wheels, brakes or touring bike parts yet as I need to spread the expense a little. I plan to make up my mind and order the wheels and brakes after the first of the month so that this bike will be complete!

If you’ve been following the numbers it looks like sub 19 pounds is within reach!

Tachycardic · Apr 18, 2013

Good job so far! Looking forward to some pics!

JMM · Apr 18, 2013

Nice to see some progress. And I think you are not at all stupid: the important thing is to build a bike that fits your needs and puts a smile on your face.

Will you tell us in the end how much it cost you?

Randy99CL · Apr 19, 2013

Thanks for your comments guys!

JMM said:
Will you tell us in the end how much it cost you?

I haven't totaled the cost yet because I'm afraid to!!! :blush2:
I can't even tell my friends and family 'cause they're not cyclists and just wouldn't understand.

But it is certainly worth it to me. The bike is unique and better suited to me and what I'll do with it. It will perform 500% better than before with higher quality components. Much more responsive and fun to ride.

I'm 61 and this bike will likely be my main ride until I can't pedal anymore. Looking at it that way certainly helps justify the cost.

And this process has been a ton 'o fun! I've been getting boxes at my door for weeks, from China, Taiwan and all over the US. Better than christmas!
I enjoy the wrenching part, too.

Bike looks good!! I like that the shifters and crankset match my frame perfectly; black with white and red accents. The new bar tape will really set off the white/black saddle.

But I still need a new helmet and gloves and car carrier (all from LBS) and the wheels and frame and fork and brakes and....it just goes on and on.

Within a month or so I'll buy what I need and build and install everything and post a detailed list of all the weights, prices paid and total bike weight in the end.
Once I figure out how to post pics there will be lots of those too.

skitorski · Apr 25, 2013

Micro Shift

Regarding the Microshift. As far as I can find out, Other than very minor differences, example, between triple and double, all the groups are the same. There is no Tiagra or Ultegra level. Just faux carbon fiber or colored sets. The mechanics are the same. $189 at bestderailurestore.com

Best Derailleur - Microshift shifters and derailleurs

Can you show this to be be not so ?

I have a Sora 8-sp 12-25 cassette for cheap if you need it.

Figure out the pics !!!

Randy99CL · Apr 26, 2013

skitorski said:
Regarding the Microshift. As far as I can find out, Other than very minor differences, example, between triple and double, all the groups are the same. There is no Tiagra or Ultegra level. Just faux carbon fiber or colored sets. The mechanics are the same. $189 at bestderailurestore.com

Hi Skit
I honestly don't know how the shifters differ from one model to another but I hope that it is not just the graphics. The listed weights do vary and I think I'll contact them and see what they say about the internal differences.

The catalog is where they show the "Shimano Reference" that I mentioned.
Go to: microSHIFT -The best control system

For the catalog: Click the "Support" button at the top. Then click "catalogue" on the left side. It took a while to load it over my DSL connection.
Click the download button (upper right) to save it to your drive.

Referencing their stuff to DA doesn't make it as good as DA, they just expect us to make a mental connection.

As I'd written, it was only $19 more to buy the Arsis set (on sale) than the Bona triple set. The listed weights for the Arsis are lighter and I like the carbon pieces, even though the carbon wrap is mostly decorative.
The catalog shows that they make lighter Arsis derailleurs that have carbon-wrapped aluminum cages; in that case the carbon is functional. I asked about them and it wasn't worth the $60 to me to upgrade and save a couple of ounces.

I do apologize but Life has interrupted the build; I've been busy and just tonight my son Alex flew in from Kuwait, YAY!!! but she's almost together and I'm ordering the parts to build the wheels sooner than expected. Updates and pics soon.

AJ88V · Apr 27, 2013

This has been fun to read. The economics will prove to be as interesting as the mechanics, but don't let that stop you. It's a little like building up a PC from parts - learn a lot, have some fun, but you'll have a hard time beating the price for a ready built machine with similar performance. Looking forward to the finished product.

Anant · Apr 29, 2013

Its a good thread regarding of weight loss. I must say good tips.

crbeals · May 2, 2013

Randy99CL said:
 I beg your indulgence; I hope I’m not wasting your time. I’ll try to make this entertaining.

So yes, I’ve done this before and no, I’m not smart enough to have learned a lesson from the first time.

I love this quote. I wish I could learn lessons too, but some times it more fun in life to make mistakes over and over again.

Thank you for the good read. Hope it turns out better than you planned.

Randy99CL · May 2, 2013

Happy Friday everyone, and thanks for your support!

I didn’t want to rely on the bathroom scale starting weight so I stripped the bike down completely and got out the digital scales. I don’t have a hanging scale so weighing the frame and wheels was a little awkward but I checked each many times in multiple ways and I’m very confident in the final numbers I’ve listed.

I’ve only added weight in two places: the pedals and cassette. The bike originally came with cheap Wellgo pedals that are fairly light, and the 12-28 10-speed cassette weighs 88g more than the 12-26 8-speed it replaced. Eventually I’ll replace the Tiagra 12-28 with an Ultegra 11-28 that has a listed weight very close to the same as the 8-speed so I’ll take that 88g gain back off.

I’ve not received the parts to build the wheels yet but this list does include everything else. The bike is now complete except for the wheels, Yay!

As you can see, with the stock wheels the complete bike now weighs 22.30 pounds; that’s almost a 2 1/8 pound loss and final weight should still be close to 19 pounds. Can’t predict accurately because of the difference between manufacturers’ listed weights (cheaters!) and the reality of my scales.

I see now that my earlier estimates were slightly optimistic because I actually forgot to list a few parts (doh!) and wrongly estimated others. For example, I expected (from past experience) the 2303 levers to weigh around 500g and was surprised when they only hit 432.

For the wheels; things have changed because I’ve decided to use Velocity A23 OC rims and they cost and weigh a little more than the Kinlins I’d originally listed. I’ve researched the off-center spoke theory and just can’t ignore the advantages, especially for the rear.
To explain: On a rear disc brake hub both flanges are offset from center to allow room for the cassette on one side and the rotor on the other. On the Rotaz hub that difference is 3.5mm. The OC rim is drilled with the spoke holes offset 4mm so the spokes will be almost the same length both sides (the calculated difference is only 0.1mm) and the spoke tension can be very close or equal on both sides.
On the wheelbuilding forum there is constant talk of uneven tension and spokes loosening or breaking on one side or the other. My wheel should have the load divided evenly between all the spokes and both hub flanges. Theory says I can expect a stronger and more trouble-free wheel than one built with a standard rim.
It is ironic that a normal (non-disc) front wheel is evenly centered but the disc hub is not. I’ll use the OC rim in front also to lessen the side-to-side difference in spokes to 0.7mm. Again, closer to equal tension on both sides.
Finally, I want to try the 23mm wide rims; everything I’ve read about going wider has been very positive. Improved handling and suppleness, no pinch flats?

I can’t wait to see what these wheels look like because the OC rims are asymmetrical and will be flipped when comparing front to rear. I obviously like things that are different and unique.
I’m expecting this to be a fairly light, strong, good handling wheelset; probably better than the name brand pre-builds that cost twice as much.
If I’m lucky the wheels will be lighter than predicted even with the slightly heavier rims. I’m buying latex tubes (always wanted to try them) and will go with 28 spokes f/r just to be different. At least 3 companies sell 29er disc wheels with 24 DB spokes so I believe that 28 will do the job for me. I weigh 165, BTW.

I do sincerely apologize to all of you but the bike is not completely assembled yet because I’ve not had a chance to test the carbon parts as I’d described earlier.
I’m spending as much time as possible with my (only) son before he goes back to Kuwait in a couple of weeks.
And I hate to even mention it but I can’t work on it (or ride) right now; I’m dealing with a couple of pinched nerves in my lower back (sciatica) that are severely limiting my mobility. At 61 my body is finding ways to pay me back for the years of abuse and neglect!
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Randy99CL · May 2, 2013

OK, that didn't work!!
I do my writing in Word and pasted in an Excel spreadsheet. Obviously, the sheet's not showing up.
Gonna have to find another way to do this!

thanks, Randy

Randy99CL · May 2, 2013

	New Part	Weight	Old Part	Weight	Difference
Frame	Trek CrossRip 50cm.	1490
Shift and Brake Cables	Jagwire	227
Brake Calipers, 2	Avid BB-5	440

Fork	Trek carbon	548
Headset	JP	73.9
Handlebar	generic carbon	215	Bontrager RL Isozone	331	116
Stem	generic carbonwrap	139	Bontrager SSR	193	54
Shift / Brake Levers	MicroShift Arsis	418	Shimano 2303	434	16
Aux. Brake Levers	Tektro RL721	94.1
Bar Tape	Nashbar (uncut)	61	Bontrager	65	4

Crankset	FSA Energy Compact	801	FSA Vero triple	1314	513
Pedals	Cook Bros Candy2	322	Wellgo	290	-32
Front Derailleur	Microshift Arsis FD-R82	109	Shimano FD-2303	119	10
Rear Derailleur	Microshift Arsis RD-R67SC	199	Shimano RD-2300	274	75
Cassette	Tiagra 12-28 10-speed	309	SRAM 12-26 8-speed	221	-88
Chain	SRAM PC-1031 (uncut)	273	KMC 8-speed	313	40

Saddle	San Marco SKN	202	Bontrager	307	105
Seatpost	generic carbon	176	Bontrager SSR	321	145
Seatpost Clamp	Bontrager	22.2

Wheel, Front		1895
Wheel, Rear		2100
	total weight in grams	10114		weight removed in grams	958
	total weight in pounds	22.30		weight removed in pounds	2.11

flatsix911 · May 3, 2013

Randy,
Keep up the good work! :thumbsup:
You may find this site useful for weight references and also a nice bike build spreadsheet:

Weight Weenies

Weight Weenie Bike Builder Application - Fair Wheel Bikes

Randy99CL · May 3, 2013

Hi flatsix!
Thanks for the comments!

Hey, my first car was a flat six! No, not a Porsche (I wish!!!), a '66 Chevy Corvair Corsa. Four-speed, posi, 4 one-barrel carbs for 140HP. Added headers and wheels, neat car. Was stolen when I drove it to Cleveland for a Who concert in '69; the memory still pisses me off.

Not too long ago owned a couple of flat fours but again probably not what you're thinkin'...they were Honda GoldWings.

I am signed up at weightweenies, I think with the same name, but I don't go there much anymore.
It is a great site with tons of good info but I find myself spending my time here. Friendlier folks, fewer trolls and flamers (better moderators?), less blatant snobbery.
It seems like a lot of the WW crowd are the $12K 6Kg guys that laugh at entry-level bikes and Treks in particular, at least that is my impression.

I do intend to add my weights to their database as they don't seem to have many current, and especially lower-end, parts listed.

flatsix911 · May 3, 2013

Randy,

Great to hear that you are a boxer engine guy! I am also a big car enthusiast and have owned a number of older Porsches including the last air-cooled 993 series.

You may want to try out the WW spreadsheet for your build ... just click on the pull down menu for the component selection options.

Weight Weenie Bike Builder Application - Fair Wheel Bikes

skitorski · May 6, 2013

Both forums have their strengths, but the WW tables are pretty limited in their market price point offerings. How's that for nicely putting it ? The ww tables are useless for most of us iron-block push rod folks.

Terribly Long, Self-Indulgent Weight Loss Thread

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