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no it isn't.
shut your festering gob, you tit! Your type makes me puke! You vacuous toffee-nosed malodorous pervert!!!
 

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then:

M: Yes, but I came here for an argument!!

A: OH! Oh! I'm sorry! This is abuse!

M: Oh! Oh I see!

A: Aha! No, you want room 12A, next door.

M: Oh...Sorry...

A: Not at all!

A: (under his breath) stupid git.

(The man goes into room 12A. Another man is sitting behind a desk.)

Man: Is this the right room for an argument?

Other Man:(John Cleese) I've told you once.

Man: No you haven't!

Other Man: Yes I have.

M: When?

O: Just now.

M: No you didn't!

O: Yes I did!

M: You didn't!

O: I did!

M: You didn't!

O: I'm telling you, I did!

M: You did not!

O: Oh I'm sorry, is this a five minute argument, or the full half hour?

M: Ah! (taking out his wallet and paying) Just the five minutes.

O: Just the five minutes. Thank you.

O: Anyway, I did.

M: You most certainly did not!

O: Now let's get one thing quite clear: I most definitely told you!

M: Oh no you didn't!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: Oh no you didn't!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: Oh no you didn't!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: Oh no you didn't!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: Oh no you didn't!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: Oh no you didn't!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: No you DIDN'T!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: No you DIDN'T!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: No you DIDN'T!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: Oh look, this isn't an argument!

(pause)

O: Yes it is!

M: No it isn't!

(pause)

M: It's just contradiction!

O: No it isn't!

M: It IS!

O: It is NOT!

M: You just contradicted me!

O: No I didn't!

M: You DID!

O: No no no!

M: You did just then!

O: Nonsense!

M: (exasperated) Oh, this is futile!!

(pause)

O: No it isn't!

M: Yes it is!

(pause)

M: I came here for a good argument!

O: AH, no you didn't, you came here for an argument!

M: An argument isn't just contradiction.

O: Well! it CAN be!

M: No it can't!

M: An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.

O: No it isn't!

M: Yes it is! 'tisn't just contradiction.

O: Look, if I *argue* with you, I must take up a contrary position!

M: Yes but it isn't just saying 'no it isn't'.

O: Yes it is!

M: No it isn't!

O: Yes it is!

M: No it isn't!

O: Yes it is!

M: No it ISN'T! Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.

O: It is NOT!

M: It is!

O: Not at all!

M: It is!

(The Arguer hits a bell on his desk and stops.)

O: Thank you, that's it.

M: (stunned) What?

O: That's it. Good morning.

M: But I was just getting interested!

O: I'm sorry, the five minutes is up.

M: That was never five minutes just now!!

O: I'm afraid it was.

M: (leading on) No it wasn't.....

O: I'm sorry, I'm not allowed to argue any more.

M: WHAT??

O: If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five minutes.

M: But that was never five minutes just now!
Oh Come on!
Oh this is...
This is ridiculous!

O: I told you... I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you PAY!

M: Oh all right. (takes out his wallet and pays again.) There you are.

O: Thank you.

M: (clears throat) Well...

O: Well WHAT?

M: That was never five minutes just now.

O: I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid!

M: Well I just paid!

O: No you didn't!

M: I DID!!!

O: YOU didn't!

M: I DID!!!

O: YOU didn't!

M: I DID!!!

O: YOU didn't!

M: I DID!!!

O: YOU didn't!

M: I don't want to argue about it!

O: Well I'm very sorry but you didn't pay!

M: Ah hah! Well if I didn't pay, why are you arguing??? Ah HAAAAAAHHH! Gotcha!

O: No you haven't!

M: Yes I have! If you're arguing, I must have paid.

O: Not necessarily. I *could* be arguing in my spare time.

M: I've had enough of this!

O: No you haven't.

M: Oh shut up!

(Man leaves the office)
 

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Two thing to keep in mind about the pros:

1) They don't chose what they ride. They ride what their sponsors give them.

2) As you say, pros are pros. In other words, a "better" bike won't make the "engine" better. They have handling and coordination abilities us mere mortals don't come anywhere close to.
Pros have engines, that i agree.

But for the handling abilities, well now, this is not necessarily true. Around here in the local Calabassas mountains of Socal, where many pros, including some World Tour but mostly domestic pros, come to train during the winter months (because Socal). And the fastest downhill KOMs are in fact not held by pros. There is one local downhill KOM guy in particular is pretty well know for setting crazy KOMs using a his rim brake bike, dropping many guys on disc brakes. And he would leave some sport motorcycle guys in the dust in many twisty sections. As an example, in sections of twisties with posted 25mph sign, he would take that corner at close to 40 mph. Then in another particular ~5 mi road descent with about 15 turns (a mix of sweepers and 180d hairpins), most people touch their brakes in every turn, some harder than others. to scrap off speed; this guy he would only touch his brakes 3 times (mainly in the 180d hairpin) the entire way down.
 

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That's interesting, but the pro's are just visiting.
He'd still be faster yet on a full disk brake bike. ....oh, and, a, don't follow that guy downhill, ever!
 

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shut your festering gob, you tit! Your type makes me puke! You vacuous toffee-nosed malodorous pervert!!!

Oooops.. the bobber went down.. fish on. :D

Disc--- like all bikie stuff.. more junk to get another cycle of $$ inbound. Does some things ok... disc. IMO not worth the grief for average joe b 10mph'r.... but it keeps his mechanic/s paid. That is fine.

I have Avid Shorty's on both of my Litespeed's.. flat bar set ups. I can stop NOW.. albeit fairly strong large hands. Can see the use for a friend who has hand issues.. a hydraulic setup.

Yet.. again IMO.. the craze for disc on road bikes just shows how they can sell most anything to the lycra crowd.
 

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I have nothing against discs, and I think most of us riding CF bikes appreciate new technology. The problem is that discs pads do rub, rotors warp and aren't perfectly flat, the added weight and expense of discs, and are more than many home mechanics can handle vs easy-to-maintain rim brakes, etc.

It is a huge positive that they do stop better, as long as they are properly installed with good pads, and they do make the choice of full carbon wheels less of a compromise vs having to purchase special brake pads that don't tend to work all that well in the rain.

All of the above said, the newest Ultegra and Dura Ace level rim brakes are so good... it's not as much of a compromise as many would seem to claim.
 

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I have nothing against discs, and I think most of us riding CF bikes appreciate new technology. The problem is that discs pads do rub, rotors warp and aren't perfectly flat, the added weight and expense of discs, and are more than many home mechanics can handle vs easy-to-maintain rim brakes, etc.

It is a huge positive that they do stop better, as long as they are properly installed with good pads, and they do make the choice of full carbon wheels less of a compromise vs having to purchase special brake pads that don't tend to work all that well in the rain.

All of the above said, the newest Ultegra and Dura Ace level rim brakes are so good... it's not as much of a compromise as many would seem to claim.
:thumbsup: I dont disagree w a thing you wrote... but:

The types I see which would fail to understand how/learn to service disc are same who essentially go down the rd w 'coaster' brakes.. poor pad contact, wear and adjustment of the rim brake system. But same usually when I ask about chain cleaning/wear measurement give a blank look...:D

I learned to take the squeal otta rim brakes.. actually to date I haven't been beat that route. :aureola: And that's another angle for me.. a challenge. Cuttin' to said chase.. I'll offer rim brakes give as much grief... IF... your UP on your maintenance to stop anything close to the disc-er.
 

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I learned to take the squeal otta rim brakes.. actually to date I haven't been beat that route. :aureola: And that's another angle for me.. a challenge. Cuttin' to said chase.. I'll offer rim brakes give as much grief... IF... your UP on your maintenance to stop anything close to the disc-er.

It's funny, but my Ridley was set up with a complete SRAM Force 22 groupset, and the SRAM brakes use Swiss Stop's as OEM. The combo of the Force brakes + the Swiss Stop pads almost never squeal... and I've used the same damn pads since I bought the bike in 2014. And, I've ridden over 2K miles just this summer... so, I'm putting a lot of miles on the bike, as well.
 

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It's funny, but my Ridley was set up with a complete SRAM Force 22 groupset, and the SRAM brakes use Swiss Stop's as OEM. The combo of the Force brakes + the Swiss Stop pads almost never squeal... and I've used the same damn pads since I bought the bike in 2014. And, I've ridden over 2K miles just this summer... so, I'm putting a lot of miles on the bike, as well.
Pretty much same here.

I flip and tend a few for others.. gets comic.. lack of brake ability I observe.

I have... set a bike to squeal at the end of the stop... see trail riding. :eek: Dogs on long leashes etc....... I need a LOUD recorded sound like a train...... yet I do not ride enough trail to bother that route.
 

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Discussion Starter #835
As if the world needed anyone to add fuel to reignite this firestorm... Thanks Chris lol.

 

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I only have one bike without discs and that is by far my most challenging. The way tri/tt bikes go about hiding the brakes within the concept of the bike for aerodynamics makes the damn things a pain.
 

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this winter has been a lot better for riding on my new bike with disk brakes, to help with the perpetually wet roads this time of year. It's my first road bike to have quality Ultegra flat mount brakes. Much smoother control on steep wet roads. However the front went out on me last week. Pads are worn out after merely 4 months! The salmon rim brake pads on my summer bike are at least 4 years old and 16 000kms on it, and not worn out at all and the XT disk pads on my mountain bikes last a couple years too. My wife's bike with 105 flat mount brakes has seen excessive wear rates too. I understand the euro road pros have been swapping in XT rotors as they find the oem rotors not so good.
 

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this winter has been a lot better for riding on my new bike with disk brakes, to help with the perpetually wet roads this time of year. It's my first road bike to have quality Ultegra flat mount brakes. Much smoother control on steep wet roads. However the front went out on me last week. Pads are worn out after merely 4 months! The salmon rim brake pads on my summer bike are at least 4 years old and 16 000kms on it, and not worn out at all and the XT disk pads on my mountain bikes last a couple years too. My wife's bike with 105 flat mount brakes has seen excessive wear rates too. I understand the euro road pros have been swapping in XT rotors as they find the oem rotors not so good.
How many miles is 4 months? Although unless you ride 1,000 miles per month, pad wear sounds premature unless you are consistently riding in a slurry of silty goop.
 

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As if the world needed anyone to add fuel to reignite this firestorm... Thanks Chris lol.

:D. Read the same thing!

froome said:
"The downside to disc brakes: the constant rubbing, the potential for mechanicals, the overheating, the discs becoming a bit warped when on descents longer than five or 10 minutes of constant braking.

"The distance between the disc and the rotors is still too narrow, so you're going to get that rubbing, you're going to get one piston that fires more than another, you're going to get these little issues. I don’t think the pistons quite retract the way they're meant to all the time. Quite often it’ll work on the stand and when the mechanic sorts it out, but once you get onto the road, it’s a different story."
And Saltchucker adds racers are using mountain bike rotors because they hold up!

Lots of negatives there!

I've fiddled with countless disc brakes in the shop. The adjustments weren't precise; there was no tolerance; and I could waste time trying to perfectly true the damn rotor. Adjusting rim brakes is so easy. Rider can visually monitor the pads and replace them before they start screaming.

Froome is right, tech needs to improve.
 

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I've fiddled with countless disc brakes in the shop. The adjustments weren't precise; there was no tolerance; and I could waste time trying to perfectly true the damn rotor.
Adjusting disc brakes isn't difficult if you are a mechanic who knows what he is doing.
 
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