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Matnlely Dregaend
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I sense a PO redirect!
 

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This is a very weak argument. But hey, if you want to go that way, think of how much longer wheelsets will last since rims are no longer used as a brake surface. Disc rotors take up much less space than rims do, so you could say disc brakes actually result in less fossil fuel use than rim brakes. Think how many more rotors than rims you could ship in the same space. :sneaky:

Where the fark did you come up with this one? Oil generators and gas turbines require much more maintenance and repair than solar panels that have no moving parts. Wind mills have moving parts, but are still much less expensive over the long run than fossil fuel generators.
Whatta ya mean, "weak?" Yes, if discs replace rim brake surfaces, the rims satisfy the gods of light weight and they don't wear out. A good quality cup and cone hub will outlast several rims. Rims used to be cosidered replaceable parts, like tires, handlebar tape, and saddles. I wouldn't expect most riders who squandered a few $thousand on proprietary trick wheels look at their rims as replaceable parts.

Replacing a standard 32 spoked aluminum rim is a simple matter that takes less than an hour with a truing stand and spoke wrench, at widely spaced intervals, a few years of hard riding! You can see everything you're doing and sculpt a perfect wheel that will stay true for years and replaceable parts will be available. This is way more carbon efficient as going through multiple wheel sets. Come on, man!

Hydraulic disc brakes don't look like they hold up any better than rim brakes. The pads and rotors probably wear down as fast. I'll have to find the picture on youtube of a rotor that got chewed up way worse than any rim. Just look at how thin everything is, and how hot it gets. Granted, carbon rims don't brake worth a damn, so would definitely work better with discs. Aluminum? Not much gained by shaving down the brake surfaces.

Well, I guess windmills sending electricity into the grid are more efficient than fire powered generators, so ok, it would certainly be more efficient. Heat goes up the chimney. This needs another thread, though, in PO! Sorry for the digression into general materialism as what got us here in the first place.
 

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Whatta ya mean, "weak?" Yes, if discs replace rim brake surfaces, the rims satisfy the gods of light weight and they don't wear out. A good quality cup and cone hub will outlast several rims. Rims used to be cosidered replaceable parts, like tires, handlebar tape, and saddles. I wouldn't expect most riders who squandered a few $thousand on proprietary trick wheels look at their rims as replaceable parts.

Replacing a standard 32 spoked aluminum rim is a simple matter that takes less than an hour with a truing stand and spoke wrench, at widely spaced intervals, a few years of hard riding! You can see everything you're doing and sculpt a perfect wheel that will stay true for years and replaceable parts will be available. This is way more carbon efficient as going through multiple wheel sets. Come on, man!
For you and me, yes. But remember that most riders have no idea how to build much less true a wheel. When the brake surface of the rim goes concave, they will throw out the wheel and replace it. Heck, many of these factory wheels have proprietary components that cannot be replaced anyway. And as you implied, riders who spend a few thousand dollars on trick wheels won't even bother.

So......if a rim brake rim lasts 20K miles before going concave, how many rotors would you have gone through at the same time? To take this further, how many rotors would you have to manufacture and ship for the carbon footprint to be equal to that of a rim?

As I said, weak argument.
 

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For you and me, yes. But remember that most riders have no idea how to build much less true a wheel. When the brake surface of the rim goes concave, they will throw out the wheel and replace it. Heck, many of these factory wheels have proprietary components that cannot be replaced anyway. And as you implied, riders who spend a few thousand dollars on trick wheels won't even bother.

So......if a rim brake rim lasts 20K miles before going concave, how many rotors would you have gone through at the same time? To take this further, how many rotors would you have to manufacture and ship for the carbon footprint to be equal to that of a rim?

As I said, weak argument.
Have to agree, proprietary wheel designs really seem to be attempts to snare market share. Shimano has been famous for this. So if owners want maintainability, they should go with the tried and true: aluminum rims laced to cup and cone hubs, with stainless steel spokes, at least 28, 32, or heck, 36. And that damn wheel will go the distance on real roads in the urban jungle. Gravel bikes are coming online set up for just that, transportation, getting around. I guess a lot of riders throw away the entire wheel when the rims get scored, but I never met any at the bike shops I've worked in, and we found only cheap trash in the dumpster outback. The price of wheels is insane. Why would I spring 5 thousand bucks on a set of wheels when I or the LBS could lace a brand new rim on a hub that's still in great shape and will go another 5 years?

Well, ok, we may differentiate between hip guys like you or me and the willful naifs who depend on the LBS to solve all their problems! Estimates of how many miles the aluminum rims I've gone through may be on the pessimistic side. Just glanced over at the commuter and it still has the front wheel purchased from Colorado Cyclist in '81, three years on the first bike, 10 on the second bike, now about 25 years on the commuter. Ambrosio Elite Durex, man, bullet proof! I've kept the brake surfaces and pads clean so they haven't gone south yet. How many miles? Who knows? Will anyone here have a disc rotor that'll last 40 years on three different bikes? These tin can thicknesses the weight weenies are putting on these tony race bikes sure won't. Like Saltchucker said, racers are balking and using mountain bike rotors.

Go ahead and collect all the tools you'll need to bleed the hydraulics and fiddle with alignment, I'll stick with a trusty Park black spoke wrench, a home made wooden rim centering tool, a 10mm socket wrench to attach the pads, an 8 mm allen wrench to center the brakes, and I'm good for another 10 years! If I ever make it to the Dolomites, I'll consider renting a disc brake bike, so I can brag to my buddies.
 

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Have to agree, proprietary wheel designs really seem to be attempts to snare market share. Shimano has been famous for this. So if owners want maintainability, they should go with the tried and true: aluminum rims laced to cup and cone hubs, with stainless steel spokes, at least 28, 32, or heck, 36. And that damn wheel will go the distance on real roads in the urban jungle. Gravel bikes are coming online set up for just that, transportation, getting around. I guess a lot of riders throw away the entire wheel when the rims get scored, but I never met any at the bike shops I've worked in, and we found only cheap trash in the dumpster outback. The price of wheels is insane. Why would I spring 5 thousand bucks on a set of wheels when I or the LBS could lace a brand new rim on a hub that's still in great shape and will go another 5 years?
WTF, I don't see why anybody would spring for a $5K wheel set, but that's just me. Lots of quality alloy rims out there that are a good compromise between light weight and durable. I've built some quality wheels and the most expensive one I built was the most recent at around $800 for all the components. Yes, I sprung for White Industries T11 hubs. The next set I will build will have Bitex hubs which bring the cost down considerably.

Shimano has made some great hubs. Sadly, they seem to be moving away from selling wheel components and only want to sell complete wheels. They don't even sell a rim brake Dura-Ace hub anymore. The 9000 was the last one and new/old stock is pretty much gone. I build my rim brake road wheel sets 24 front/32 rear. More spokes give you a less flexy wheel.

Well, ok, we may differentiate between hip guys like you or me and the willful naifs who depend on the LBS to solve all their problems! Estimates of how many miles the aluminum rims I've gone through may be on the pessimistic side. Just glanced over at the commuter and it still has the front wheel purchased from Colorado Cyclist in '81, three years on the first bike, 10 on the second bike, now about 25 years on the commuter. Ambrosio Elite Durex, man, bullet proof! I've kept the brake surfaces and pads clean so they haven't gone south yet. How many miles? Who knows? Will anyone here have a disc rotor that'll last 40 years on three different bikes? These tin can thicknesses the weight weenies are putting on these tony race bikes sure won't. Like Saltchucker said, racers are balking and using mountain bike rotors.
Interesting that weight weenies don't shun disc brakes entirely as they add weight. Oh the humanity!

Not surprised your front wheel is still going. Front wheels aren't subject to the drive forces rear wheels are. And you get much more braking power in the front from much less brake force, so the rim surface will wear much slower. Don't know how many miles it has? That is important. Wheels don't wear out sitting idle. ;)
 

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Woahhh....!! Quick release rocks! Thru axle fails.


This guy takes out his formulas and exposes once and for all the BS that "thru axles" actually make the wheel stiffer. Quite the reverse.

He says tightening the thru axle with the little wimpy tool provided usually doesn't reach the torque necessary to keep the hub from flexing in the dropouts when you need it to stay stiff the most. He says the progressive torque on QR cams holds the wheel in the dropouts tighter than thru axle! Why? He doesn't talk about tension, but largely because as you tighten the QR lever, the progressive cam ends up tensioning the QR shaft, exactly what you need to keep the wheel from flexing in the dropouts! How about that?

Snookered by the marketing geniuses [and lawyers!] yet again, appealing to fear, to make us want something that actually works worse than what it replaced! He says you have to torque down thru axle bolts really hard to equal the tension of a standard manually adjusted QR. The lawyers stay up at night worried about the idiots who don't tighten their QR snugly and lose a wheel on that terrible descent. Eliminate the dropouts and wheels won't fall out! The lawyers can sleep at night!

So bah humbug. Always loved QR wheels. So convenient! No tools necessary! You do it by feel, you know, like riding a bike!
 

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The real reason for a thru axle is to keep braking forces from ejecting the front wheel.
Yes. Builders go with thru axle because it's "safer," viz. the wheel will stay in place even if it comes loose. Better than "lawyer lips", right?

Manufacturers perceived that problem, whether true or not, about the time discs became standard on road bikes, this despite 20 years of disc wheels not tripping out of dropouts on QR mountain bikes. The point is, if tensioned normally with the QR skewer, braking forces don't eject the front wheel. Thru axle is another solution looking for a problem. Riders used to file off "lawyer lips" so their front wheels would actually drop out without unscrewing the nut on the skewer. So manufacturers insured liability protection by going the next step, thru axle.

IOW, like so much other stuff about modern bikes, the trade offs are too often worse than the problems they claim to solve. I ain't giving up my QR skewers, much less true dropouts, because some ninny tells me they aren't as good as thru axle. They're better. Thru axle tradeoffs are unacceptable for the minimal gain in "safety." I'd skip buying a disc brake road bike if it has thru axles, but probably don't have the choice.
 

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A big advantage of thru-axles is that they provide a much more consistent interface between the brake pads and rotor each time you remove/install the wheel.
 

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A big advantage of thru-axles is that they provide a much more consistent interface between the brake pads and rotor each time you remove/install the wheel.
Sure, if you're willing to mess with it.

I've just slipped the wheel in the dropouts if bike is standing on the ground, and then, while pushing firmly down on the stem with the right arm, click the QR lever closed with the left arm. If bike is in a stand, very easy to seat the wheel up into the dropouts with both hands. On a true dropout without lawyer lips, I don't even have to adjust the skewer tension. The brake pads center just fine! If they're off, the brake bolt came loose. If the bolt wasn't torqued down enough during the previous assembly, lateral force from repeated braking could wiggle it loose.

I can definitely appreciate your preference for thru axles, though, dealing with the minimal clearance of pads and disc. Good point!
 

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Discussion Starter #874
Oh wow, I guess I had a free article available or something. That's unfortunate because it is a pretty good discussion of the reality. In short, bike manufacturers have already moved on due to declining rim brake sales (not the other way around as has been suggested apparently), so consumers that are holding out will eventually have to as well. The article suggests the number of people doing so isn't as many as some people think. The article also celebrates the positives of rim brake equipped bikes while also acknowledging the benefits that come with disc brakes.
 

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Oh wow, I guess I had a free article available or something. That's unfortunate because it is a pretty good discussion of the reality. In short, bike manufacturers have already moved on due to declining rim brake sales (not the other way around as has been suggested apparently), so consumers that are holding out will eventually have to as well. The article suggests the number of people doing so isn't as many as some people think. The article also celebrates the positives of rim brake equipped bikes while also acknowledging the benefits that come with disc brakes.
As is usually the case, there are ups and downs to both. The bottom line is if you have a rim brake bike bike you love, there is no reason to buy a new bike in order to get disc brakes. Although the choices of components for repairs and upgrades are slowly dwindling.
 

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Discussion Starter #876
As is usually the case, there are ups and downs to both. The bottom line is if you have a rim brake bike bike you love, there is no reason to buy a new bike in order to get disc brakes. Although the choices of components for repairs and upgrades are slowly dwindling.
Those are pretty much my feelings too. You will eventually have less (or maybe even few) options for wheels and replacement parts, but the differences in performance are not night and day. There's nothing "wrong" with either brake type honestly, as each has its strengths and weaknesses. At the end of the day, things are changing and there is some stuff to really like about disc brake equipped bikes. Not everyone will love them, but I see why lots of people do. I currently have one bike with each, but probably won't buy another bike with rim brakes given the shift that is clearly occurring.
 

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Sure, if you're willing to mess with it.

I've just slipped the wheel in the dropouts if bike is standing on the ground, and then, while pushing firmly down on the stem with the right arm, click the QR lever closed with the left arm. If bike is in a stand, very easy to seat the wheel up into the dropouts with both hands. On a true dropout without lawyer lips, I don't even have to adjust the skewer tension. The brake pads center just fine! If they're off, the brake bolt came loose. If the bolt wasn't torqued down enough during the previous assembly, lateral force from repeated braking could wiggle it loose.

I can definitely appreciate your preference for thru axles, though, dealing with the minimal clearance of pads and disc. Good point!
I wonder what Tullio Campagnolo would think about this? He would probably consider thru axles a step backwards. He's probably rolling over in his grave about now.
 

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As is usually the case, there are ups and downs to both. The bottom line is if you have a rim brake bike bike you love, there is no reason to buy a new bike in order to get disc brakes. Although the choices of components for repairs and upgrades are slowly dwindling.
So true. Don't abandon the one you love for fashion! But pay respects to the new stuff and if something really great comes along, adapt to it and kiss the old stuff goodbye.

There's an aftermarket for the good stuff, though, driven by enthusiasts. Chains, freewheels and rim brake pads will still be available 20 years from now. But sure, go with the flow, get the most popular stuff, more bang for the buck! The options are numerous: not only hydraulic disc brakes, add wattage strain gauge that tells rider the awful truth, wireless electronic shifting, instant hard data on all bodily functions, more gears, a map of your location...and STRAVA! What more could you ask for? A motor? Got it!

I just wanna ride my bike. The less on it, the less there is to worry about. I also enjoy getting lost once in a while. Keeps me fresh! Always get stale slavishly sticking to an exercise regimen. Let the hills decide!
 

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Discussion Starter #880
Four years of the "once all, end all thread"? Just saying.
It was never designed to end the conversation (how could it??? this is RBR after all...). The thread was designed to prevent this topic from spilling over into every other discussion, which it was at the time. It's all right there in the first post. To be fair though, I am as surprised as anyone that this topic is still carrying on and that it has any fire left to it at all lol.
 
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