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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I just have to say that I'm so tired to hearing "The Greg LeMond Story." With all the great races he has had, all that that he has done, all I keep hearing about, year after year, is how he got screwed over by Hinault. I agree that it's a compelling story, but Greg just sound like a bitter old man. Maybe they should try a different story angle next time, maybe something a little more fresh. If I were him, I would want all of my successes to define my career instead of this incident.

Chris
 

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ctxcrossx said:
I just have to say that I'm so tired to hearing "The Greg LeMond Story." With all the great races he has had, all that that he has done, all I keep hearing about, year after year, is how he got screwed over by Hinault. I agree that it's a compelling story, but Greg just sound like a bitter old man. Maybe they should try a different story angle next time, maybe something a little more fresh. If I were him, I would want all of my successes to define my career instead of this incident.

Chris

Alot of people are tired of the LA story on OLN - and this is the first year its been on. oh well.
 

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Does anyone else think Bobke and Liggett sort of disagree with Lemond's claim that Hinault "screwed" him that year? They seem to be shrugging it off a bit...

I totally agree with you - especially when contrasted with Armstrong's "ride through the grass field" when Beloki crashed, then bad luck with the musette - he comes back with a vengeance but never complains.
With Lemond - it's like a conspiracy theory. Everyone teamed up on Lemond. First they didn't tell him how far back Hinault was, then he had a flat in a team trial that he would have "surely won", according to Lemond himself, of course. Then the whole peloton was against him when they didn't chase Hinault. Poor, poor Lemond. Tiny violins never stop playing...
 

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ctxcrossx said:
I just have to say that I'm so tired to hearing "The Greg LeMond Story." With all the great races he has had, all that that he has done, all I keep hearing about, year after year, is how he got screwed over by Hinault. I agree that it's a compelling story, but Greg just sound like a bitter old man. Maybe they should try a different story angle next time, maybe something a little more fresh. If I were him, I would want all of my successes to define my career instead of this incident.

Chris
When you refer to "The Greg Lemond Story" are you referring to an actual programme? If so is it on DVD?

I got into cycling just as lemond turned pro so my reference points are pre the shooting and his comeback. My earliest memory of continental racing was the 1983 Giro di Lombardia. Lemond, in the Arc-en-Ciel jersey, was pipped by Kelly for the win.
 

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I concur!

On Saturday night OLN replayed the "Fearless" (I think) episode profiling LeMond.

After the show all I could think was, "what a bitter man." It is 15 or so years later, a wife, kids, a bike company, $$$$$, and a few more Tour wins and cycling victories than me and he complains about getting ganged up on, how he could have won more, and how the entire peloton all of the sudden was doping costing him victories.

I'm not sure what he has to be bitter about (or even sure that he is), but when he talks about cycling and his legacy, he sure seems like it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
When I refer to the Greg LeMond story, I suppose I'm just referring to the OLN version since it gets repeated every single year in the same exact fashion. I even agree that it's quite an interesting and dramatic story. I suppose the reason that it's annoying is because that this one incident has overshadowed his entire career (at least as far as OLN is concerned). From what I've heard over the years on OLN, I can just imagine that Greg is this bitter old man in a rocking chair who tells this story (and only this story) over and over so everyone will know how he was screwed over. I don't think it's an accurate portrayal. At least I hope it's not. I'd love to see an angle talking about how he was the first american to win the tour, and how be brought america into the world of european cycling.

I can certainly understand how OLN feels like the Only Lance Network. Although I do feel that it is justified. Look at most of the drama that has happened in the past 7 years, most of them did involve Lance. So it's not really surprising that he is talked about so much, he's been the fixture of the race for that long. I don't necessarily love how much coverage Lance is getting, but at least they can vary the stories. They can talk about specific incidents, his cancer, his battle with the french press, his overall 7 wins, tactics, etc. There's good, there's bad, but it's more than just one story.

Thanks for letting me vent!

Chris
 

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55x11 said:
Does anyone else think Bobke and Liggett sort of disagree with Lemond's claim that Hinault "screwed" him that year? They seem to be shrugging it off a bit...

I totally agree with you - especially when contrasted with Armstrong's "ride through the grass field" when Beloki crashed, then bad luck with the musette - he comes back with a vengeance but never complains.
With Lemond - it's like a conspiracy theory. Everyone teamed up on Lemond. First they didn't tell him how far back Hinault was, then he had a flat in a team trial that he would have "surely won", according to Lemond himself, of course. Then the whole peloton was against him when they didn't chase Hinault. Poor, poor Lemond. Tiny violins never stop playing...
Bobke and Liggett weren't party to the dicussions between Lemond & Hinault in 85. Bob was still racing in the US and Liggett was a commentator.

Lemond claims that he was led to believe that in exchange for his support in 85 Hinault would return the favour in 86. He then attacked when there was no need, claiming it was to soften up the opposition, in particular Zimmerman. If you look at the final result in each year it is more likely that Lemond was the stronger in 85 and 86, yet team orders scuppered his ambitions in 85. Zimmerman was 10" adrift by Paris and IIRC Hinaults attack had NO effect.

As far as Armstrong being Mr Stoic and not whining, what about the accusation he levelled at JU regarding attacking him after the crash? It was plain to see that JU didn't press home the advantage but carried on at an even pace.

I don't remember Lemond whining about the lack of wages from ADR in 1989 until after the season was more or less done.
 

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Any story gets 'tiring' on the 90th telling....

ctxcrossx said:
I just have to say that I'm so tired to hearing "The Greg LeMond Story." With all the great races he has had, all that that he has done, all I keep hearing about, year after year, is how he got screwed over by Hinault. I agree that it's a compelling story, but Greg just sound like a bitter old man. Maybe they should try a different story angle next time, maybe something a little more fresh. If I were him, I would want all of my successes to define my career instead of this incident.

Chris
Try reading your favorite novel over and over again about 35-50 times. How enjoyable is it by the last reading?

Mass Media is wonderful at drumming us over (and over and over) the head with what was originally a compelling story.

On a further note I'd have to say that LeMond's '89 comback win is far more the defining moment of his career and is far more remembered by most than his '86 battle with Hinault. (Also, LeMond basically sat up and gave Hinault the '85 Tour on orders from the team. He basically had an opportunity to win it and gave it away on the road. Try for a moment to imagine being in that situation yourself. I think, contrary to so much that is said by LeMond bashers, that Greg always displayed incredible professionalism, honesty, and integrety throughout his career and has continued to do so in retirement.)
 

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zero85ZEN said:
Try reading your favorite novel over and over again about 35-50 times. How enjoyable is it by the last reading?

Mass Media is wonderful at drumming us over (and over and over) the head with what was originally a compelling story.

On a further note I'd have to say that LeMond's '89 comback win is far more the defining moment of his career and is far more remembered by most than his '86 battle with Hinault. (Also, LeMond basically sat up and gave Hinault the '85 Tour on orders from the team. He basically had an opportunity to win it and gave it away on the road. Try for a moment to imagine being in that situation yourself. I think, contrary to so much that is said by LeMond bashers, that Greg always displayed incredible professionalism, honesty, and integrety throughout his career and has continued to do so in retirement.)
LMAO
Sure he has. He's not a bitter old man at all. He loves his fellow American cyclist.
 

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I don't know why everyone thinks Lemond is so bitter-I thought he was just reflecting on his career. If anyone had an injury like his, it would be natural to wonder about what could have been. I don't think he deserves enough credit for being the guy who did the most to facilitate more Americans going to Europe, or for modernizing the sport in general, both by technical innovations and rider salaries/conditions. When he went to Europe it was to ride on a euro team-in 84 he rode in suport of Fignon on Renault. Hinault saw he was obviously the best young rider, so siged him on to keep him under control. being on la vie claire in 85 was the equivalent of a euro being on discovery under Lance. There was no way they were going to let Lemond win in 85, although he was obviously stronger than Hinault and had to wait for him on a pivotal stage. In 86 Hinault did screw him over--unless you think a teammate attacking without notice and then telling papers the race wasn't over isn't screwing you over. On a team where Hinault had total control, the effect was to totally isolate Lemond. If anyone watched that tour, the stress and isolation it had on Lemond/family etc was pretty awful and it was designed to try to make him crack.

It's true that Lemond was never the same after his injury, and he's probably rigtht to think that had he not been injured he would have dominated 87 and 88. He would have beaten Roche and Delgado. Had he come to the tour with a team around him like Armstrong had, he would have won 85, so doing the math that puts him up around 6+ possible victories. How would anyone feel reflecting on that?
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
zero85ZEN said:
Try reading your favorite novel over and over again about 35-50 times. How enjoyable is it by the last reading?

Mass Media is wonderful at drumming us over (and over and over) the head with what was originally a compelling story.

On a further note I'd have to say that LeMond's '89 comback win is far more the defining moment of his career and is far more remembered by most than his '86 battle with Hinault. (Also, LeMond basically sat up and gave Hinault the '85 Tour on orders from the team. He basically had an opportunity to win it and gave it away on the road. Try for a moment to imagine being in that situation yourself. I think, contrary to so much that is said by LeMond bashers, that Greg always displayed incredible professionalism, honesty, and integrety throughout his career and has continued to do so in retirement.)
I think that's what I'm getting at. I agree with most of what you say (although I do remember hearing about a Lance and Greg tiff). Anyway, I think that someone who knows about the the LeMond era would agree with what you say. I suppose my issue is with OLN retelling the same LeMond story over and over again, not necessarily with LeMond. I think OLN is making LeMond out to be the bitter guy. Whether this is intentional or not, I don't know.

Chris
 

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ultimobici said:
Bobke and Liggett weren't party to the dicussions between Lemond & Hinault in 85. Bob was still racing in the US and Liggett was a commentator.

Lemond claims that he was led to believe that in exchange for his support in 85 Hinault would return the favour in 86. He then attacked when there was no need, claiming it was to soften up the opposition, in particular Zimmerman. If you look at the final result in each year it is more likely that Lemond was the stronger in 85 and 86, yet team orders scuppered his ambitions in 85. Zimmerman was 10" adrift by Paris and IIRC Hinaults attack had NO effect.

As far as Armstrong being Mr Stoic and not whining, what about the accusation he levelled at JU regarding attacking him after the crash? It was plain to see that JU didn't press home the advantage but carried on at an even pace.

I don't remember Lemond whining about the lack of wages from ADR in 1989 until after the season was more or less done.
I think the point Bobke or Liggett made was - you have to grab the tour victory, rather than expect it to be handed to you.

You think if Hincapie wins TdF someone like Popo has a right to complain that he was "promised" a victory a year ago by Bruneel?!

As to Armstrong's musette victory - Ullrich carried at an even pace because that's the fastest Ullrich can go on that mountain. To their credit - it was Hamilton who put the breaks on the lead group. I don't remember Arsmtrong complaining about it much, except for contradicting some interviewer (Sherwin?) when they said that Ullrich waited for him - he responded with something like "No, actually he didn't". Either way, there's no dramatic 30-minute "inside specials" with teary Armstrong all about how he was wronged by Ullrich for not waiting.
 

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shokhead said:
LMAO
Sure he has. He's not a bitter old man at all. He loves his fellow American cyclist.
Remember, we're getting everything through the media. The media likes a good story, a good quote, etc, etc.
All Greg has ever done is not be shy about speaking his mind. (I'm not defending him, or making excuses for what he says....but he certainly has the right to speak when questioned.) The current state of affairs in the pro peleton is the result of most in the sport keeping their mouths shut and thus tacitly condoning the creeping corruption that doping has had on the sport.

And not 'loving' Armstrong is not a unique position to be in. For his part Armstrong doesn't seem to dispense a lot of love to many of his former friends, team-mates, co-workers, employees, etc, etc....
 

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shokhead said:
LMAO
Sure he has. He's not a bitter old man at all. He loves his fellow American cyclist.
I find it even more irritating when Lemond says things like: "I had a flat, but surely I would have won that time trial".

I think we all know a guy who is like that: "I would have beaten you for sure, but when it was time to sprint, I was in the wrong gear." or "I could have won that race, but I did a 200 mile ride yesterday. And then my stomach was cramping up. And I didn't get enough sleep. And I was training through this race anyways. But I could have won for sure"
 

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55x11 said:
I think the point Bobke or Liggett made was - you have to grab the tour victory, rather than expect it to be handed to you.

You think if Hincapie wins TdF someone like Popo has a right to complain that he was "promised" a victory a year ago by Bruneel?!

You're failing to take into consideration that LeMond sat up in '85 and gave, or perhaps I should say HANDED the victory to Hinault with the promise that the team would pay him back the next year and work for a LeMond victory in '86.
LeMond honored his team, his obligation to his team leader, and 'did the right thing' for Hinault. Only thing LeMond may have been guilty of is naivety; for expecting Hinault to honour his word in '86.
 

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What wasn't mentioned by Greg...

55x11 said:
I find it even more irritating when Lemond says things like: "I had a flat, but surely I would have won that time trial".

I think we all know a guy who is like that: "I would have beaten you for sure, but when it was time to sprint, I was in the wrong gear." or "I could have won that race, but I did a 200 mile ride yesterday. And then my stomach was cramping up. And I didn't get enough sleep. And I was training through this race anyways. But I could have won for sure"
...is the very high probabilty that his bikes were being sabotaged by his own team! Now this may or may not be the case but he did have mechanical problems in both the individual TT's that year. And the incredible stress the team put him under was totally devastating. And would make anyone paranoid and suspicious. Basically there was a complete split within the team. A sort of La Vie Clair civil war so to speak...all the English speaking riders (on the team and within the Tour) siding with LeMond and the rest behind Hinault. There's got to be a great book waiting to be written about that team during that Tour...if you could ever get all the principle players to really talk candidly and truthfully.
 

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ctxcrossx said:
I think that's what I'm getting at. I agree with most of what you say (although I do remember hearing about a Lance and Greg tiff). Anyway, I think that someone who knows about the the LeMond era would agree with what you say. I suppose my issue is with OLN retelling the same LeMond story over and over again, not necessarily with LeMond. I think OLN is making LeMond out to be the bitter guy. Whether this is intentional or not, I don't know.

Chris
Fair enough. I'm just so tired of all the Lance bashing, LeMond bashing, Lance loving, LeMond loving that goes on and on on these forums. I'm sure neither of them are saints by any means.

As far as OLN is concerned...they're trying to market to the casual viewer that doesn't have a very in depth understanding of the sport, much less any knowledge of the history of the various riders currently active or those retired (except for Lance, and to a lesser degree LeMond).
 

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ctxcrossx said:
I just have to say that I'm so tired to hearing "The Greg LeMond Story." With all the great races he has had, all that that he has done, all I keep hearing about, year after year, is how he got screwed over by Hinault. I agree that it's a compelling story, but Greg just sound like a bitter old man. Maybe they should try a different story angle next time, maybe something a little more fresh. If I were him, I would want all of my successes to define my career instead of this incident.

Chris
Lemond was up against alot winning the TdF for himself. No one wanted an American to win it.
 
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