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We have a little ride coming up here in Washington State called the Ramrod its 154 miles around Mt Rainier. The ride features 10,000 feet of climbing and unfortunately is limited to 800 riders because the Federal Officials at Mt Rainier National Park apparently feel more than 800 bikes would interfere with the thousands of cars that go through the park. The ride is sold out and tickets are nearly impossible to comeby. The Redmond Cycle Club which puts on the ride discourages bandits from riding the course. Here is what they say.

BANDITS": You know who you are. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE.....if you cannot get a ticket, DO NOT RIDE THE COURSE!!! Yes, life is tough. Get over it. You do not have a God-given right to ride RAMROD. We are limited to 800 riders by the National Park Service and we base our food, water and safety support on this number. By riding this event as an unregistered rider, you endanger yourself and others (as well as the event) by increasing the number of riders (and PSVs) on the road and straining our resources.

If your group cannot all get tickets, please arrange to ride the course on another day. The mountain will still be here! We would greatly appreciate it if you would respect the event and the riders who follow the rules. Thank you


The Washington State Patrol and the Department of Transportation apparently doesnt have any problems with riders riding their 100 miles of the route but the Feds apparently cant handle a few more bikes. As a comparison the Seattle to Portland ride handles 9000 riders plus bandits over similar roadways. The Park Service cant handle 1/10th the amount? By the way if you flew here from the east coast and just decided to ride around the mountain and were unaware of Ramrod would you be committing a crime? If I start my ride at 1155 pm the night before and quit at midnight and restart at 455 am before the Ramrod arent the poaching my ride?:)
 

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borregokid said:
The Washington State Patrol and the Department of Transportation apparently doesnt have any problems with riders riding their 100 miles of the route but the Feds apparently cant handle a few more bikes. As a comparison the Seattle to Portland ride handles 9000 riders plus bandits over similar roadways. The Park Service cant handle 1/10th the amount? By the way if you flew here from the east coast and just decided to ride around the mountain and were unaware of Ramrod would you be committing a crime? If I start my ride at 1155 pm the night before and quit at midnight and restart at 455 am before the Ramrod arent the poaching my ride?:)
Well, they can't MAKE you not ride, and if you're not bogarting the support stuff, then you're probably not technically doing anything wrong.

What the organizers are really concerned about is that the park service won't discriminate between bandits and legit riders, and if there are lots of bandits and the park service decides that there were way too many riders, they might ban the event next year, or otherwise cause a hassle. Whether this would really happen or not is beside the point.

Now, would you really want to endanger the event or get the organizers a ration of sh*t from Ranger Rick, just so you can ride with a big group? Personally, I think banditry is dicketry--they know they're not invited, or they didn't pay when others did, but they show up anyway. Who does that proudly?
 

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You're Not the Boss of Me
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This is a hot button issue for me. DON'T DO IT. Just don't.

Organized rides are in jeopardy all over the US because law enforcement feels they can't handle the traffic, or the motorist push back, or whatever. Event limits are set for a REASON, and it doesn't just have to do with the supply of bagels or portapotties.

I think you ARE technically doing something wrong. You want to ride the "event," not just the route (it is no mere co-inky-dink that you want to hit the course the same day as RAMROD).

STP is bigger? So what. So's the Austin to Houston MS150. What has that got to do with the price of tea in China? RAMROD involves spectacular roads in a national park at the height of summer tourist season and has to adjust accordingly.

And the folks who got their bib # the honest way deserve to get the benefit of their bargain... not to have the course jammed up by bandits.

*rant off*
 

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classiquesklassieker
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Waah waah waah

borregokid said:
The Park Service cant handle 1/10th the amount? By the way if you flew here from the east coast and just decided to ride around the mountain and were unaware of Ramrod would you be committing a crime? If I start my ride at 1155 pm the night before and quit at midnight and restart at 455 am before the Ramrod arent the poaching my ride?:)
You're not the organizer, so it's not up to you to decide how the ride should be. So don't be a prick, don't interfere with the ride. Do your own damn ride another time, or somebody call the waaambulance!
 

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orange_julius said:
You're not the organizer, so it's not up to you to decide how the ride should be. So don't be a prick, don't interfere with the ride. Do your own damn ride another time, or somebody call the waaambulance!
plus if you bandit and happen to crash or need medical assistance, don't expect the ride's medical staff to help you. their insurance doesn't generally cover riders not on the official ride.
 

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imho - this is the issue.

borregokid said:
The mountain will still be here!

You can make their reasoning appear ridiculous and justify doing what you want to do regardless of the wishes of others, but this is like crashing a party to which you weren't invited. Joining a ride when you've been asked not to is the behavior of a spoiled child. Ride it on your own, organize your own ride or find another ride. How old are you that being left out hurts so bad?
 

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I have a problem with bandits also. Why I have a problem may not apply in this case, but whatever. I don't race, but my wife is a runner who does. In nearly every smaller race that does not use timing chips to record race times, the organizers take the times with a stop watch on a computer and then match the times with the runners in the order they come out the end of the finishing gate. This is done by ripping off their bib numbers and threading them on to a string. The bandit runners do not have numbers but their time is recorded in the computer. Every time taken after the first bandit runner comes through is inaccurate. The inaccuracy increases as more and more come through.

I have never understood why these people feel it is okay to run in an event they didn't pay for, and then run through the finishing gate- it would be very easy to run to the side and keep from messing up the timing of the race.

Plan ahead next year and register before the event fills up. Like others have said, if the 800 rider limit is the decision of the Park, then it is a good possibility that the event could be canceled in the future if the Park decides there are too many riders. This is not fair to the organizers and those who planned ahead.
 

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If you had planned to travel to the site, and this was the one day this year you could do it, and coincidentally you discovered that RAMROD was on the same day and you couldn't get in, then I would say go ahead and do <u>your</u> ride. But don't take advantage of anything RAMROD does that would not have been part of your ride.

If none of these conditions apply, then why press the issue? Sure, you are entitled to ride the roads, but I'm sure you can find somewhere else to ride for a day. I guess it's possible that Mt. Rainier could blow up any time and you will never get a chance to ride around it, but that's a chance you'll have to take.
 

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Sorry I disagree with all of this. When some one puts on an event on public property they have no right to tell other people not to use the public property. Are they paying the government for exclusive use of the park?

I have this problem on the mountain bike trails around here. A promoter runs a series of races that are day long races. I don't follow the races, so I don't know when they are scheduled. I occasionally show up for my ride at the local state park and there is a race going on. Sorry, I'm riding. I pay taxes, and some money making promoter is not going to tell me I can't ride on the public property I've been coming to for 20 years.

It's a public park where cycling is allowed. You pay taxes. Go ride whenever you like and don't worry about it. I'd even go so far as to complain to the park that the cycling club is telling others they cannot cycle in this public park during their event. I'm sure the park system would take a very dim view of the cycling club discouraging tax payers from using THEIR park.
 

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Doc_D said:
Sorry I disagree with all of this. When some one puts on an event on public property they have no right to tell other people not to use the public property. Are they paying the government for exclusive use of the park?

I have this problem on the mountain bike trails around here. A promoter runs a series of races that are day long races. I don't follow the races, so I don't know when they are scheduled. I occasionally show up for my ride at the local state park and there is a race going on. Sorry, I'm riding. I pay taxes, and some money making promoter is not going to tell me I can't ride on the public property I've been coming to for 20 years.

It's a public park where cycling is allowed. You pay taxes. Go ride whenever you like and don't worry about it. I'd even go so far as to complain to the park that the cycling club is telling others they cannot cycle in this public park during their event. I'm sure the park system would take a very dim view of the cycling club discouraging tax payers from using THEIR park.
Yeah! To hell with what anyone else wants! Yeah!
 

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You're Not the Boss of Me
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Ah yes, the old "its a public road" defense to pirating organized events... Oh, and threatening to complain about organized cycling events to public agencies. Now there's a pro-cycling fix!


And if you go to the park and the bench is already in use, do you just sit on their lap? After all, its a public bench...
 

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Bandits should be strung up by their ......"parts"....and not cut down until the last rider finishes.
 

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classiquesklassieker
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Did you not read the post?

Doc_D said:
Sorry I disagree with all of this. When some one puts on an event on public property they have no right to tell other people not to use the public property. Are they paying the government for exclusive use of the park?

I have this problem on the mountain bike trails around here. A promoter runs a series of races that are day long races. I don't follow the races, so I don't know when they are scheduled. I occasionally show up for my ride at the local state park and there is a race going on. Sorry, I'm riding. I pay taxes, and some money making promoter is not going to tell me I can't ride on the public property I've been coming to for 20 years.

It's a public park where cycling is allowed. You pay taxes. Go ride whenever you like and don't worry about it. I'd even go so far as to complain to the park that the cycling club is telling others they cannot cycle in this public park during their event. I'm sure the park system would take a very dim view of the cycling club discouraging tax payers from using THEIR park.
Did you not read the title of the original post? Here it is again for your benefit: To Bandit Or Not To Bandit-that is the question.

The intent here is different from just riding along some road. And that is what the issue at hand is.

If you insist on bringing the "public property" argument, when your neighbor is renovating their roof and asks for the parking space immediately in front of their house to be left open for a large truck to park there with all the equipment and materiel, do you similarly complain that it should be public space? By your argument, the Tour de France should not be run on public roads.
 

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OK let me explain it to you this way....

My picnicing club is putting on an organized picnic at every state and federal park next 4th of july. If you would like to attend you can pay me $100. I demand that no other picnic'er bandit my picnic event. I also expect that every potential picnic'er will be aware of my event, and either pay me or not show up. If it does so happen that you and your family didn't hear about my event and drive an hour to you favorite park. When you get there and realize I have an event going on, I expect you to pack up your things, turn around and drive home. No picnicing for you!

How is that any different?
 

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You have missed a lot of what the OP said.

The only reason the OP wants to ride those roads that day is because of a PERMITTED RIDE. The PERMIT ISSUER (THE NATIONAL PARK SERVICE) not the ride organizers has put a limit of 800 riders on the PERMITTED RIDE.

By forcing his way into the PERMITTED EVENT the OP endangers the very existance of the event the OP wants so badly to do so badly.

Just think for a minute of all the great events that used to exist that now remain only in sad memory. (Hint, start with REPACK and take it from there....)

Do we want to add one more event to the list?

Do words like DUMB, SELFISH and ARROGANT ring a bell?
 

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Simply put, bandits suck. No amount of libertian-free-roads-will-of-the-people-you-can't-tell-me-what-to-do BS changes that fact. It's an immutable law of the universe, bandits suck.

Now, if you'd flown out from Beirut and showed up in the area completely ignorant and expecting to ride, well, I might be slightly less stringent in my view, assuming you stayed the hell away from their services. I sometimes share a local MUT that is being used for some local charity century ride that I was unaware of. But I don't use their things and I don't ride in their packs, and if I'm aware in advance that it's happening, I avoid the route.

Do the right thing and stay away. No amount of rationalization is going to make it right. You know it's happening and they've asked you to stay away. Be polite and respect their request. Barring a catastrophic eruption, Rainer will be there the next day and the day before. Think a little bit less about yourself and a bit more about the people that bothered to get registered on time. Don't be an ass, don't suck.
 

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Doc_D said:
OK let me explain it to you this way....

My picnicing club is putting on an organized picnic at every state and federal park next 4th of july. If you would like to attend you can pay me $100. I demand that no other picnic'er bandit my picnic event. I also expect that every potential picnic'er will be aware of my event, and either pay me or not show up. If it does so happen that you and your family didn't hear about my event and drive an hour to you favorite park. When you get there and realize I have an event going on, I expect you to pack up your things, turn around and drive home. No picnicing for you!

How is that any different?
How about this? I show up at your closed, well-announced picnic, somehow ignorant that it was happening. Because I'm disappointed and somewhat embarrassed to be standing there uninvited, with my picnic basket hanging out, I haul out the "public space" argument, and insist that you turn over one of the "public" picnic shelters--and, oh, by the way, that public grill over there--that you thoughtfully arranged with the park to reserve for your event, and that paying participants are all ready to sit down/cook at.

Do you go along with my demands?

Parks are public, but the management is fully able to reserve some or all of the space for groups (especially paying groups whose money funds what the gov't won't) from time to time. We all know this--most of us have taken advantage of it a few times too, I bet. Arguing that it's unjust simply smacks of childish insistence that any rule not to your liking be changed.

And, as others have pointed out, your analogy doesn't stand up anyway because it's actually off-topic.
 

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bikeboy389 said:
How about this? I show up at your closed, well-announced picnic, somehow ignorant that it was happening. Because I'm disappointed and somewhat embarrassed to be standing there uninvited, with my picnic basket hanging out, I haul out the "public space" argument...
Actually I would never even consider turning away others from the park, that's my point. Thank you for making it for me. I would invite that person to use the park as they see fit. And sure, if they need to use a grill, we'll work them in. BECAUSE IT'S A PUBLIC GRILL AND WE ALL SHARE.

Everyone is calling me the selfish one. 800 riders shutting down 152 miles of national park that is probably normally used by thousands of riders, that's selfish. How many miles of that road is the group using at any one time?

I'm sure "RAMROD" is a nationally known event that is well publicized through the national media outlets. But let's just say for a moment that here in the midwest I somehow missed the TV, newspaper, and magazine media blitz for this event and planned my vacation an Mt Ranier for that weekend. I guess I should just sit in my hotel room and ride the trainer when I show up in Washington right?
 

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As though there are not 100,000 other miles of roads in Washington state that the OP couldn't ride on for just that one day?

If I showed up unawares and it was made clear to me the day of the event that non-participants could not be accomodated, I'd find somewhere else to ride. For God's sake, it isn't every road in the state that's closed.

And besides, the OP is here knowing full well he should not go and he's looking for dispensation from his fellow cyclists. Looks like 99% of us are saying "no", you're the only one that's taking the infringement of my God-giving liberties route. Perhaps you need to recognize that everyone can't have every single little precise thing they want every stinking day of their lives. Sometimes we have to compromise.
 
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