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· Wearing blue suede shoes
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm looking to build a set of wheels to go on a 900 mile unsupported ride. I'm looking to build a set of wheels which will be durable, but I really don't care if they are particularly light or blingy.
I am thinking 36 spoke, DT TK540 rims, and Ultegra FH6600 hubs. Haven't put much thought into spokes yet.
Any thoughts? Budget is a consideration as I seem to be spending a rather lot of money getting ready for this trip.
 

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The TK540 is a nice and strong rim.

How much is the loaded weight? I would think 36 14/15G spokes will be fine, and you can use spoke head washers if you would like since there may be a little play at the elbows with Ultegra hubs.

Since you are looking into Ultegra hubs I'm assuming you do not have disk brakes and the rear dropout spacing is 130mm. White Industries hubs are also a good opiton (MI5 front and H3 rear), but they cost more than Ultegra.

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valleycyclist said:
..............you can use spoke head washers if you would like since there may be a little play at the elbows with Ultegra hubs.
That's an interesting comment. As there can only be "a little play at the elbows" if spoke tension goes below zero, I would contend that if such a condition did exist then a wheel would be beyond any help that spoke elbow washers might provide.
 

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valleycyclist said:
I don't want this to turn into a separate discussion, but I think spoke head washers are a good idea to use when the flange holes are a little large since that reduces the fatigue of the elbow. It probably isn't necessary in this case, but I thought I would toss in that idea.
The OP would do well to look into your claims then instead of accepting them at face value.
 

· Wearing blue suede shoes
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I am going to be building these myself but have limited experience with the art. I do understand there is a fairly wide variety of positions regarding wheelbuilding and don't attempt to hide my ignorance.
This being said, why would there be tend to be play at the elbows? Ultegra spoke holes are larger than others?
 

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I like the book "The Art of Wheelbuilding" by Gerd Schraner. It is available on Amazon.com. He discusses when spoke head washers are good to use, and it basically boils down to if the spoke is in the hub and you can feel any play. I don't think anyone would say it makes the wheels worse to use them if they are not necessary except that they add a few grams.
 

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peterjones said:
I am going to be building these myself but have limited experience with the art. I do understand there is a fairly wide variety of positions regarding wheelbuilding and don't attempt to hide my ignorance.
This being said, why would there be tend to be play at the elbows? Ultegra spoke holes are larger than others?
Ultegra spoke holes are no bigger than on most other hubs. It's a non-issue. Spokes just don't "hook" into the flanges and leave a gap on one side; they are canted over as they make their way to the rim and this action makes them touch the hub spoke holes at two places - right behind the head (on the side away from the rim) and at the inside of the spoke bend. This, plus spoke tension, makes them immovable in the hole, unless you have serious problems (as I stated in my earlier post) and something makes the spoke tension to be less than zero. Then they will move. But then you have other issues to worry about.
 

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valleycyclist said:
I like the book "The Art of Wheelbuilding" by Gerd Schraner. It is available on Amazon.com. He discusses when spoke head washers are good to use, and it basically boils down to if the spoke is in the hub and you can feel any play. I don't think anyone would say it makes the wheels worse to use them if they are not necessary except that they add a few grams.
I also like this book. Though many of Mr. Schraner's insights are vaulable, many are somewhat antiquated and based in subjectivity and opinion rather than fact.
Note that Roger Musson's Professional Guide to Wheelbuilding and Peter White's 2007 article on DT spokes suggest that flange thickness is a driver for the use of washers, not the spoke hole diameter.
The bottom line is that spoke washers are mostly obsolete with today's aluminum flanges, which are necessarily of adequate thickness to support the elbow.
All of Shimano's spoke holes are drilled at 2.6mm, FYI.
 

· Wearing blue suede shoes
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meltingfeather said:
I also like this book. Though many of Mr. Schraner's insights are vaulable, many are somewhat antiquated and based in subjectivity and opinion rather than fact.
Note that Roger Musson's Professional Guide to Wheelbuilding and Peter White's 2007 article on DT spokes suggest that flange thickness is a driver for the use of washers, not the spoke hole diameter.
The bottom line is that spoke washers are mostly obsolete with today's aluminum flanges, which are necessarily of adequate thickness to support the elbow.
All of Shimano's spoke holes are drilled at 2.6mm, FYI.

This makes total sense to me, but leads me to the next question: Is the distance from the back of the spoke head to the bend the same on all spokes? This seems as though it would drive the need for washers as much as flange thickness.
 

· Wearing blue suede shoes
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I read the article/rant and what I got out of it is that DT came back around to their original length on the elbows of their spokes, but White still doesn't like them because of the design of the head/spoke transition.
 

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Sapim has some information regarding this too, and they suggest a maximum hole size of 2.5mm for 14G spokes.
(from http://www.sapim.be/index.php?st=checklist&taal=uk
Hub hole suitability Hold the hub flange horizontally. Put the spoke, with the head inside, a little higher. While centring, you should push on the hub lightly; the spokes will easily adjust themselves. (Attention: do not push so hard that the spokes bend!).

Using oversized hub holes is an easy solution. However, this will cause a lot of play and is not recommended.

Consider the use of spoke washers.

Too much tension on the spoke head will also cause problems.

Ideal hub hole Ø equals spoke thread Ø + 0.1 mm (eg. spoke thread on 14G/2 mm measures thread 2.25 mm + 0.1 = 2.35 mm: max. hole Ø 2.50 mm).
 

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valleycyclist said:
Sapim has some information regarding this too, and they suggest a maximum hole size of 2.5mm for 14G spokes.
(from http://www.sapim.be/index.php?st=checklist&taal=uk
Hub hole suitability Hold the hub flange horizontally. Put the spoke, with the head inside, a little higher. While centring, you should push on the hub lightly; the spokes will easily adjust themselves. (Attention: do not push so hard that the spokes bend!).

Using oversized hub holes is an easy solution. However, this will cause a lot of play and is not recommended.

Consider the use of spoke washers.

Too much tension on the spoke head will also cause problems.

Ideal hub hole Ø equals spoke thread Ø + 0.1 mm (eg. spoke thread on 14G/2 mm measures thread 2.25 mm + 0.1 = 2.35 mm: max. hole Ø 2.50 mm).
Whatever your argument and whatever Sapim says, the fact is that probably millions of wheels have been built with 14g spokes and Shimano hubs with no significant trend towards broken spoke heads. The long history of success doing exactly what the OP wants to do trumps any argument about ideal spoke hole diameter. Also, isn't it kind of silly to talk about ideal spoke hole diameter when you have no say in it other than hub choice? If you're selecting hubs based on the spoke hole diameter alone, I'd say you're ignoring quite a number of other important factors. For example, what if the only hub that has your ideal spoke hole diameter is a BMX hub and you want to build a 9-speed mtb wheel?
Incidentally, Roger Musson, who is a professional wheelbuilder and has been for many years, and also is a published author on the topic, favors the 1.8/1.6 verson of DT Comps for use in all hubs. He himself admits no long-term data on the reliability, but has not had problems in doing this for a number of years.

OP - to get back to your original question, your build sounds right on. Use DT Comp 2.0/1.8 spokes and you'll be fine. There is no need for spoke washers on Ultegra or any other modern hub. :thumbsup:
 

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meltingfeather said:
Roger Musson, who is a professional wheelbuilder and has been for many years, and also is a published author on the topic, favors the 1.8/1.6 verson of DT Comps for use in all hubs. He himself admits no long-term data on the reliability, but has not had problems in doing this for a number of years.
Wheels with 1.8mm spokes are quite common. I have a set - built by a prolific wheelbuilding company. But I have yet to see a hub advertised "Warning - this hub is for 1.8mm spokes only." And I've yet to see a wheel with spoke washers. I'll conclude from this that spoke washers, even with 1.8mm spokes, never mind 2.0mm ones, is a non issue.
 

· Chili hed & old bike fixr
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meltingfeather said:
I also like this book. Though many of Mr. Schraner's insights are vaulable, many are somewhat antiquated and based in subjectivity and opinion rather than fact.
Note that Roger Musson's Professional Guide to Wheelbuilding and Peter White's 2007 article on DT spokes suggest that flange thickness is a driver for the use of washers, not the spoke hole diameter.
The bottom line is that spoke washers are mostly obsolete with today's aluminum flanges, which are necessarily of adequate thickness to support the elbow.
All of Shimano's spoke holes are drilled at 2.6mm, FYI.
THe last Dura/ace hubs that I measured were 2.3 MM dia holes, has this changed?
 

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Based on the last Dura-Ace hubbed wheel I built, I think you are correct. I didn't measure them, but there was a tight fit.

I think Ultegra hubs have larger diameter holes to make lacing wheels for mass production as fast as possible since the spokes can be dropped in very quickly.

It seems that lots of people here are against using washers for larger diameter holes, but there is something about a tight fit around the spoke head. Most high-quality hubs have smaller holes. Spokes today are much better than they used to be, but in more extreme cases like a loaded touring bike I still would suggest spoke head washers with Ultegra hubs.
 

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For a touring wheelset, you might consider DT Alpine III spokes. These are swaged spokes, but thicker in the elbow end (2.35/1.8/2.0mm). They're priced about the same as DT Competition, at least in the webshop I used, and they only weigh marginally more. But note that the radius at the elbow is larger, so you have to make sure that there's enough clearance to the cassette.
 
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