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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
He said something basically like:

Floyds drug test is having its final appeal, but they've already awarded Oscar P the 2006 Title.
I'll never accept Oscar P as the winner since he went out on a long breakaway and wasn't a marked man.



What troubles me is his logic. How can he accept Floyd Landis as winner as we all know that Floyd was no longer a marked man after he blew away the Yellow Jersey the day before and was allowed to go out solo and gain back time.

:confused: :confused: :confused:
 

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Not sure his logic makes sense, but I think I understand what he is saying. Floyd had been a favorite going into the race, which made him a marked man from day one. He was clearly going for the yellow jersey and was wearing it at the time OP went on his break. On the other hand, OP had the luxury of not being a favorite and not being a marked man. What did OP ever do that would make anyone think about bringing him back? In short, Floyd going on a break and OP going on a break are two totally different things.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
mohair_chair said:
Not sure his logic makes sense, but I think I understand what he is saying. Floyd had been a favorite going into the race, which made him a marked man from day one. He was clearly going for the yellow jersey and was wearing it at the time OP went on his break. On the other hand, OP had the luxury of not being a favorite and not being a marked man. What did OP ever do that would make anyone think about bringing him back? In short, Floyd going on a break and OP going on a break are two totally different things.
I think he is just playing favorites to the Americans on his American channel.

We could also discount Brakejovic in 2007 Tour of Georgia. He was not a favorite.. One team may have chased a break he was in, but gave it up.

Favorite or not, the least amount of time wins in a stage race.
 

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I was watching the broadcast as well but only caught part of what he said so it's interesting (to me) that you bring this up. Did he actually say that he still considers Floyd the winner or just that he doesn't endorse Oscar as the awarded winner? ... Like the previous poster commented, I can potentially see where he's coming from depending on his exact point of view. But whatever he was really getting at, it doesn't seem like it was worded very well.
 

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Oscar finished 10th place in 2005 (one place behind Landis). He was the 5th best placed rider starting in 2006. It's was stupid for the GC guys to let him get 30 minutes in a breakaway. He finished 10th again in 2007.

He may not have been a favorite in 2006, but he was no longshot either.

Paul probably considers Lance the winner in 2006:rolleyes:
 

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bas said:
He said something basically like:

Floyds drug test is having its final appeal, but they've already awarded Oscar P the 2006 Title.
I'll never accept Oscar P as the winner since he went out on a long breakaway and wasn't a marked man.



What troubles me is his logic. How can he accept Floyd Landis as winner as we all know that Floyd was no longer a marked man after he blew away the Yellow Jersey the day before and was allowed to go out solo and gain back time.

:confused: :confused: :confused:
All very good points. Im with you on this. The way Landis rode....give'm the Yellow. Most are dirty anyhow.....
 

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Yea the biggest f-up is letting Periero get 30 minutes back. IIRC he blew up on a prior stage and was that far behind. What the rest of the peloton didn't realize was that it was to be his only bad day.
 

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bas said:
He said something basically like:

Floyds drug test is having its final appeal, but they've already awarded Oscar P the 2006 Title.
I'll never accept Oscar P as the winner since he went out on a long breakaway and wasn't a marked man.



What troubles me is his logic. How can he accept Floyd Landis as winner as we all know that Floyd was no longer a marked man after he blew away the Yellow Jersey the day before and was allowed to go out solo and gain back time.

:confused: :confused: :confused:
You know what irritated me when I heard him say that?

He mentioned over and over than "we all know Perrerio isn't REALLY the winner of the Tour..." then a few minutes later, talked about how badly Astana should be let into le Tour because Contador won last year.

Contador won because of people getting removed from the race for doping! It's (almost) the same thing! I was ranting at my television for the duration of the VS. Dauphine TT coverage whenever he contradicted himself like that.
 

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Andrea138 said:
You know what irritated me when I heard him say that?

He mentioned over and over than "we all know Perrerio isn't REALLY the winner of the Tour..." then a few minutes later, talked about how badly Astana should be let into le Tour because Contador won last year.

Contador won because of people getting removed from the race for doping! It's (almost) the same thing! I was ranting at my television for the duration of the VS. Dauphine TT coverage whenever he contradicted himself like that.
Paul seems to say at least one or two things that irk me in the course of a broadcast, Astana or doping in general often having something to do with it...

But with regards to the comparison to Contador's win, I think there is a significant difference between his circumstances and Floyd's. The issues/decision with Floyd and the 2006 tour surfaced after the race was over, whereas the issues during the 2007 tour were all during the tour. When Contador assumed the yellow, there were still a few stages (particularly the final time trial) left for the others to attack him and try to take away the lead.
 

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What are talking about- there wasn't a Tour in 2006. Or in 1998.

nah nah nah can't hear you. . . .
 

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It's a bit like Servais Knaven winning Paris-Roubaix in 2001. Sure, he won, but not wholly deservedly.
 

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bas said:
What troubles me is his logic. How can he accept Floyd Landis as winner as we all know that Floyd was no longer a marked man after he blew away the Yellow Jersey the day before and was allowed to go out solo and gain back time.
I agree with Paul S. on this one... Nothing to do with the players at hand- Floyd or Perrerio, but IMO, to truly win a GT, a racer needs to bear the responsibility of wearing the leaders jersey on the last day of the race (or quite simply to finish with the fastest time on the finish line.) There is a burden with wearing the leader jersey for the last few days (having other teams target your weaknesses, etc..) that Perrerio didn't have to bear.

I am not trying to discount Perrerio's talent, or desire, but he didn't win. I would put the blame more squarely on Floyd's shoulders- he screwed up the tour for everyone else and thus for 2006 no one won the TdF in my book. :(
 

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Sherwin has fingers in a few pies--I think he consults to the mining industry in Africa or something--and more interestingly, perhaps, he *was* also head of PR for US Postal (and into Disco? ) for some years...he's very close to the Lance 'machine' and to most riders and staff who went through the Postal/Disco stable.

I enjoy his commentary for the most part (though he tends to trot out a handful of phrases over and over [e.g. '(some rider) is such an EXPERT bike handler', or, following a crash in MSR or Het Volk, 'that's why you should NEVER, EVER ride at the back in these early Spring races' etc]. We get it, Paul.
 

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Pablo said:
It's a bit like Servais Knaven winning Paris-Roubaix in 2001. Sure, he won, but not wholly deservedly.
The idea of an undeserving winner of PR seems strange, so I went back and read accounts of the race. I still don't see what was undeserved about Knaven's win.

I could maybe see this about Museeuw's win, I think in 1996, when his DS ordered his teammates not to contest the sprint.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Kestreljr said:
I agree with Paul S. on this one... Nothing to do with the players at hand- Floyd or Perrerio, but IMO, to truly win a GT, a racer needs to bear the responsibility of wearing the leaders jersey on the last day of the race (or quite simply to finish with the fastest time on the finish line.) There is a burden with wearing the leader jersey for the last few days (having other teams target your weaknesses, etc..) that Perrerio didn't have to bear.

I am not trying to discount Perrerio's talent, or desire, but he didn't win. I would put the blame more squarely on Floyd's shoulders- he screwed up the tour for everyone else and thus for 2006 no one won the TdF in my book. :(
But people were still able to shoot for OP's 2nd position... He had 2nd wrapped up.
 

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bas said:
But people were still able to shoot for OP's 2nd position... He had 2nd wrapped up.
2nd doesn't make history books, and more importantly, you don't call the second place finisher the "winner".

Edit: my response was incomplete. The point was that some riders would attack, ride, and finish differently if they were just trying to move up in the ranks- but they don't, they try to win. If OP was the target, teams could have attacked hard on the mountains to draw more time. With Floyd in the picture, those attacks could have backfired, etc... So the focus of the teams strategies were on how to beat Floyd, not on how to beat OP.
 

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harlond said:
The idea of an undeserving winner of PR seems strange, so I went back and read accounts of the race. I still don't see what was undeserved about Knaven's win.

I could maybe see this about Museeuw's win, I think in 1996, when his DS ordered his teammates not to contest the sprint.
Well, to be clear, I think the winner is the winner, and that's that. Knaven won and Periero won. Maybe they weren't great victories, but, in my mind at least, you need a Nico Mattan in Ghent or a cheating situation to not have a "deserving" winner. Nevertheless, I see the perspective about a "deserving" winner, but for me, it's more a question of the quality of the victory.

With the 2001 PR, Knaven won because he rode for the super strong Farm Frites team. He won on a solo attack, but he was only allowed to go solo because of the dynamics of the lead group--or at least, that's how I understood it as I watch (and rewatch) the race. The lead group was five (or maybe six) guys: three (or four) from Farm Frites and Ludo and Hincapie. Once this group was away, FF took turns attacking to break down Ludo and Hincapie in the hope to spring their leader Museeuw. It could have been Knaven just as easily as Museeuw. I think that's the point. It's especially a big deal in PR where the strongest guy is supposed to win.
 

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Pablo said:
It's a bit like Servais Knaven winning Paris-Roubaix in 2001. Sure, he won, but not wholly deservedly.
You couldn't be more wrong. No one wins PR that doesn't deserve to win. Just to be in a position to win at PR requires a Herculean effort. Knaven was there, he got the nod, no one bothered to chase him, he wins. It's not his fault he was clearly the strongest guy.
 

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mohair_chair said:
You couldn't be more wrong. No one wins PR that doesn't deserve to win. Just to be in a position to win at PR requires a Herculean effort. Knaven was there, he got the nod, no one bothered to chase him, he wins. It's not his fault he was clearly the strongest guy.
See my previous response to another poster (Post # 17). As I talk about there, I don't think the word "desere" really comes into play in bike racing. Nothing against Knaven, but it wasn't a great victory.
 
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