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Discussion Starter #1
Granted, overall tube wheels appear lighter than clinchers, but how much, if any, is really gained by the time you've got all that glue on the rims & tires? Anyone ever weigh before & after? A nice set of light weight clinchers like Velomax Ascent ll may be very close or even lighter than many tubes, and without all the PIA of tubes.
 

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tis pretty simple really. i was bored at work and thinking about this earlier today. light tubes (for clinchers) run ~80 g apiece. light clinchers run ~220g apiece. grand total of 600 g. you can get light tubies at 195 g. but most functional light tubies run ~230 g. so 600 g v 460 g. now figure the relative weight of rim tape/plugs v glue. also, factor that tubular rims are stronger than clinchers at any given weight.

ps. sorry about not giving the specific brands above...i've forgotten which i based these number upon. i believe pro2 races for the clinchers and a tufo model for for the tubies.
 

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ampastoral said:
tis pretty simple really. i was bored at work and thinking about this earlier today. light tubes (for clinchers) run ~80 g apiece. light clinchers run ~220g apiece. grand total of 600 g. you can get light tubies at 195 g. but most functional light tubies run ~230 g. so 600 g v 460 g. now figure the relative weight of rim tape/plugs v glue. also, factor that tubular rims are stronger than clinchers at any given weight.

ps. sorry about not giving the specific brands above...i've forgotten which i based these number upon. i believe pro2 races for the clinchers and a tufo model for for the tubies.
Don't forget the weight of the extra tubbie you'll need in case you get a flat. Ooops. There goes that weight savings.
 

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This is a old story & you will get the usual replies ;)

Tires might be close but try & find a clincher wheelset around 1000 grams. I know of one. Extralite ultra but it is 1190. Then you also add rim tape

We wont even mention how much better tubbies corner & ride ;)

Dont get me wrong I am on clinchers now. Wheels 1392gr. for the set.... tires Veloflex 180 gr.each.....tubes michelin light butyl 70gr. each. It is only because I moved to a place with a lot of glass this year. They ride nice & are pretty light

But rode tubs for 15+ years & will ride them again as soon as I move back ;)
More so for the ride but also nice to have a light climbing set for special days.

alienator said:
Don't forget the weight of the extra tubbie you'll need in case you get a flat. Ooops. There goes that weight savings.
Actually not even close......My little clincher repair ziploc has a tube a patch kit ,levers, co2 & head weighs 334grams

But its all good. Ride what you like best ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #5
flying said:
This is a old story & you will get the usual replies ;)

Tires might be close but try & find a clincher wheelset around 1000 grams. I know of one. Extralite ultra but it is 1190. Then you also add rim tape

We wont even mention how much better tubbies corner & ride ;)

Dont get me wrong I am on clinchers now. Wheels 1392gr. for the set.... tires Veloflex 180 gr.each.....tubes michelin light butyl 70gr. each. It is only because I moved to a place with a lot of glass this year. They ride nice & are pretty light

But rode tubs for 15+ years & will ride them again as soon as I move back ;)
More so for the ride but also nice to have a light climbing set for special days.



Actually not even close......My little clincher repair ziploc has a tube a patch kit ,levers, co2 & head weighs 334grams

But its all good. Ride what you like best ;)
But, check some of the posted weights of CF tube wheels on the post above:


FSA 1501 & 1470
Easton 1332.5
Cane Creek 1365 & 1248
the rest varied from 1025 to 1164

Those first several already start above or near the Velomax Ascents, so the final weight savings won't be that great & when you consider the PIA factor from glue up to increased flats, the PIA in changing on the road, etc..................
 

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SHVentus said:
But, check some of the posted weights of CF tube wheels on the post above:


FSA 1501 & 1470
Easton 1332.5
Cane Creek 1365 & 1248
the rest varied from 1025 to 1164

Those first several already start above or near the Velomax Ascents, so the final weight savings won't be that great & when you consider the PIA factor from glue up to increased flats, the PIA in changing on the road, etc..................

Perhaps but those are not what I would look at.
I would be inclined to
Zipp 202's
Reynolds Cirro KOM
or a custom build that would be 202 rims & tune hubs with cx rays spokes

All of these are very near 1000grams.

If you want true weights check here
True weights
See what all the lowest weight wheels are in comments.

As to the PIA part I rarely flatted with tubbies & of course never a pinch flat. Many times though I waited as my riding partners changed their cinchers..
If I did get a flat it was a major glass shard rare but happened. I can rip a tubbie off slap the spare on hit it with the co2 & be off faster than anyone I knew could change a clincher check the tire for the offender if not a pinch & retube it.

Like I said it is all good & folks should ride what they enjoy.
It is funny though you never see tubbie riders posting how much lighter & better it is than clinchers.
Usually it is always a clincher rider trying to say the opposite ;)
To each their own its all good.
 

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alienator said:
Hmmm. I don't pinch flat w/ clinchers, either. Maybe it has something to do with inflating the tires? On the rare occasion that I get a flat, I don't see anyone timing me....so I don't race to get the flat fixed.
Your probably right about the inflation. Since clinchers dont lose air fast like a tubbie sitting a day or two. Perhaps a lot of the clincher riders I ride with dont top up before rides or just are not in the habit of it.

:) Yes sorry about the flats I didnt mean to imply your slow at it. I was replying to the quote by SHV that it is a PIA to change a tubbie on the road.

PS: Isn't it weird how sometimes a post like this jumps ahead of the one it is replying to?
 

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flying said:
As to the PIA part I rarely flatted with tubbies & of course never a pinch flat. Many times though I waited as my riding partners changed their cinchers..
If I did get a flat it was a major glass shard rare but happened. I can rip a tubbie off slap the spare on hit it with the co2 & be off faster than anyone I knew could change a clincher check the tire for the offender if not a pinch & retube it.
Hmmm. I don't pinch flat w/ clinchers, either. Maybe it has something to do with inflating the tires? On the rare occasion that I get a flat, I don't see anyone timing me....so I don't race to get the flat fixed.

flying said:
Like I said it is all good & folks should ride what they enjoy.
It is funny though you never see tubbie riders posting how much lighter & better it is than clinchers.
Usually it is always a clincher rider trying to say the opposite ;)
To each their own its all good.
It is funny though you do see a lot of tubbie riders posting how light their tubs are (you just have to pay attention when they do it), how well they ride and handle, and how clinchers will never be as good.

I agree with the sentiment, though, that a person ought to ride what flips their switches.
 

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About a 150 - 200g difference between the two in total weight with race worthy builds and tires (not Zipp 202 or KOM for regular racing imo). You can drop another 150g by going with Lightweight wheels. That's about it as far as weight is concerned.
 

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alienator said:
Don't forget the weight of the extra tubbie you'll need in case you get a flat. Ooops. There goes that weight savings.
yes, but that's not rotational weight..... ;) :D
 

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Mark McM said:
So what? Weight is weight, it matters little if its rotating or not.
sorry, twas a joke. isn't that the course of the usual "discussion".....dammit, we've abandoned nuances of language for emoticons. now they're failing us too. i hate the internet.... (somewhat serious, somewhat sarcastic, but all in good nature) :D
 

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ampastoral said:
sorry, twas a joke. isn't that the course of the usual "discussion".....dammit, we've abandoned nuances of language for emoticons. now they're failing us too. i hate the internet.... (somewhat serious, somewhat sarcastic, but all in good nature) :D
I knew exactly what your 'emoticons' were referring to! Hah.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
flying said:
Perhaps but those are not what I would look at.
I would be inclined to
Zipp 202's
Reynolds Cirro KOM
or a custom build that would be 202 rims & tune hubs with cx rays spokes

All of these are very near 1000grams.

If you want true weights check here
True weights
See what all the lowest weight wheels are in comments.

As to the PIA part I rarely flatted with tubbies & of course never a pinch flat. Many times though I waited as my riding partners changed their cinchers..
If I did get a flat it was a major glass shard rare but happened. I can rip a tubbie off slap the spare on hit it with the co2 & be off faster than anyone I knew could change a clincher check the tire for the offender if not a pinch & retube it.

Like I said it is all good & folks should ride what they enjoy.
It is funny though you never see tubbie riders posting how much lighter & better it is than clinchers.
Usually it is always a clincher rider trying to say the opposite ;)
To each their own its all good.
Flying,

Thanks for your input, I appreciate it. How true you are about me being a sideline clincher rider, commenting/questioning the tubbies. Just curious about them & their potential benefits over clinchers. I have never had the privelege of riding a tubbie, and to be honest, I'm not sure my riding skills (fast cornering, climbing, etc.) would be able to tell the difference unless it is dramatic.

It just seems to be a slight savings in weight (well maybe more), for the increased hassles of tubbies over clinchers. But again, since I don't have any personal experience with tubbies, it's just a preconceived notion, based on reads of posts (probably from more clincher only riders). Having never mounted or changed a tubbie, it's just my visualization of the horror of smearing messy, smelly glue on rims & tires (hands, rims, clothing, etc.), waiting to dry, building up, etc. I remember hearing during the TDF a couple years ago, how the Postie wrenches took a week or two to get the glue just right on the rims & tires, let it age just so, etc. before mounting or riding - just seemed like too much of an esoteric PIA for me, esp. since I "ain't no racer". And I never have any SAG wagons following me.

I would love to save more weight, have a better riding & handling bike, & all the other positive attributes that tubbies are suppose to possess over clinchers, if the PIA factor (mounting, changing, flat predisposition, etc.) is indeed negligible. I ride roads that have a lot of glass and occasional small shards of metal. I may go several rides without a flat, then get one on each ride for 2-3+ rides in a row. My preconceived notion of regluing a tubbie in the field (smearing sticky glue in an environment of grass, dirt, rain, etc.) seems a little daunting. If the bottom line is a savings of 150-200gm, but the PIA factor is real, I just don't think I want to venture down the expensive HWY of tubbies. You make a good case for proper evaluation though. Thanks.
 

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Find me a pair of 60mm clincher that weights less 1200g........

SHVentus said:
Granted, overall tube wheels appear lighter than clinchers, but how much, if any, is really gained by the time you've got all that glue on the rims & tires? Anyone ever weigh before & after? A nice set of light weight clinchers like Velomax Ascent ll may be very close or even lighter than many tubes, and without all the PIA of tubes.
 

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SHVentus said:
Flying,

Thanks for your input, I appreciate it.
No problem it is after all only my opinion ;)
The best way if your really curious is to try them. Maybe borrrow a set?

For me yes the weight is substantial, yes the rotaional weight makes a difference. Otherwise nobody has any business looking at lighter wheels.
Easier to lose a pound off the body eh? But wheels have to be spun up to speed hundreds of times in a long ride.
The performance extends to how the bike feels. The bike rolls into & out of corners rather than falls into them. I like to go down technical descents very fast & they feel more planted to me too. Yes you can go fast on clinchers too ;)

The stories you heard about the mechanics? Well they are dealing with a whole team & multi sets of wheels. They also might be steeped in tradition on how they go about it.Also their riders are coming down off mountain passes at speeds most will never attain. But at that speed most prefer tubbies. Maybe for feel maybe for fear of a flat at that speed with a clincher has a higher risk of a crash.

No Sag wagon? Me too ;)
That is IMO the 1 drawback to tubbies. Your allowed one flat then you head home unless you feel really lucky. You do not repair on the roadside although in older days some did ;)
You also never have glue with you. Your spare is either a new tire that has already had glue put on or more likely an older worn tire. Again already glued. You do not need to reglue tires. Remember glue on tires for spares is dry already. Once put on the heat of running & braking is what bonds it again.

The smelly mess you speak of is not how I have done it for years. Most put too much glue. You only need a thin even layer on both tire & rim.
The build up you speak of is only on a new rim & is quite quick to do.
In many years of using them I also never add anymore glue to a rim when changing tires. Only the new tire gets a coat.

The place you describe as your riding area is best suited to clinchers. Which is why I am on them now too. I just moved from an area I lived for 20 years next to a national park with clean roads. But I will still have a set for special days when I go to ride in such areas.
Even in less than perfect condition you just need to be careful & brush the tire while riding with your glove if you inadvertantly go thru a bad patch. Same as you would do with clinchers.

There is nothing wrong with todays clinchers. They are pretty nice.
But most folks who advise about tubulars sound like their experience is based on here say.

Good Luck & enjoy the ride.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
flying said:
No problem it is after all only my opinion ;)
The best way if your really curious is to try them. Maybe borrrow a set?

For me yes the weight is substantial, yes the rotaional weight makes a difference. Otherwise nobody has any business looking at lighter wheels.
Easier to lose a pound off the body eh? But wheels have to be spun up to speed hundreds of times in a long ride.
The performance extends to how the bike feels. The bike rolls into & out of corners rather than falls into them. I like to go down technical descents very fast & they feel more planted to me too. Yes you can go fast on clinchers too ;)

The stories you heard about the mechanics? Well they are dealing with a whole team & multi sets of wheels. They also might be steeped in tradition on how they go about it.Also their riders are coming down off mountain passes at speeds most will never attain. But at that speed most prefer tubbies. Maybe for feel maybe for fear of a flat at that speed with a clincher has a higher risk of a crash.

No Sag wagon? Me too ;)
That is IMO the 1 drawback to tubbies. Your allowed one flat then you head home unless you feel really lucky. You do not repair on the roadside although in older days some did ;)
You also never have glue with you. Your spare is either a new tire that has already had glue put on or more likely an older worn tire. Again already glued. You do not need to reglue tires. Remember glue on tires for spares is dry already. Once put on the heat of running & braking is what bonds it again.

The smelly mess you speak of is not how I have done it for years. Most put too much glue. You only need a thin even layer on both tire & rim.
The build up you speak of is only on a new rim & is quite quick to do.
In many years of using them I also never add anymore glue to a rim when changing tires. Only the new tire gets a coat.

The place you describe as your riding area is best suited to clinchers. Which is why I am on them now too. I just moved from an area I lived for 20 years next to a national park with clean roads. But I will still have a set for special days when I go to ride in such areas.
Even in less than perfect condition you just need to be careful & brush the tire while riding with your glove if you inadvertantly go thru a bad patch. Same as you would do with clinchers.

There is nothing wrong with todays clinchers. They are pretty nice.
But most folks who advise about tubulars sound like their experience is based on here say.

Good Luck & enjoy the ride.
Flying,

Again, many thanks for your wisdom & expertise. Yes, I did notice a tremendous improvement going from Open Pros to my Velomax Ascents. Dropping a pound of rotating ballast was very noticeable. I would like to get the weight of the wheels/tires as low as safely practical. The spin up time & effort to do so was markedly reduced with the Ascents. Someday I'll have to give tubbies a spin. Thanks.
 
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