I had an issue with that on a set of Conti's once. I got a canvas tie-down strap and wrapped it around the wheel after gluing but before inflating. Then I inflated the tire and let it sit overnight. It worked great.
Tubular gluing disater
I've been riding for 30 years and do all my own wrenching. This is my first try at sewups, I tried three times to get this right and it's no good. I have a wheel set with Araya gold rims. The tires are Vittoria Corsa Evo Ex using Vittoria Mastik. I have followed all the directions on youtube and the tire simply will not lay down on the rim, leaving a space on one side. The tires have a distinct bead down the middle of the bottom tape, always resulting in a V shape and the tire will conform to the rim. I'm already looking to replace the tubular rims with clinchers.
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Pumped up?
That said, your consideration of clinchers is still a valid one. I rode tubulars for 30 years and switched to clinchers over a decade ago. NOT ONCE have I regretted that decision. YMMV.
Did you fully pump the tires up to rated max pressure (standard procedure to "set" the glue)? I'd be surprised if that didn't press the chafing strip against the rim, especially if left overnight.onespeedbiker said:I've been riding for 30 years and do all my own wrenching. This is my first try at sewups, I tried three times to get this right and it's no good. I have a wheel set with Araya gold rims. The tires are Vittoria Corsa Evo Ex using Vittoria Mastik. I have followed all the directions on youtube and the tire simply will not lay down on the rim, leaving a space on one side. The tires have a distinct bead down the middle of the bottom tape, always resulting in a V shape and the tire will conform to the rim. I'm already looking to replace the tubular rims with clinchers.
That said, your consideration of clinchers is still a valid one. I rode tubulars for 30 years and switched to clinchers over a decade ago. NOT ONCE have I regretted that decision. YMMV.
Had that issue with some Vittoria cyclocross tubs and then again with some Rallys. Figured it was because they were cheap.
Not a problem with the slightly nicer Challenge tires I have, nor Tufos.
Not a problem with the slightly nicer Challenge tires I have, nor Tufos.
Tubulars are for racing........or if you consider yourself a "retro-guy".
If you glue them on so that you can change them on the road quickly, you haven't used enough glue to prevent "roll-off" in really hard cornering. If you feel that they give you improved "road feel", you better check under your mattress for a pea.
If you glue them on so that you can change them on the road quickly, you haven't used enough glue to prevent "roll-off" in really hard cornering. If you feel that they give you improved "road feel", you better check under your mattress for a pea.
Really, for racing or retro guys? How about guys like me that would like to get every performance edge they can but still stinks (not you OP I mean me).... yeah a poseurin some books.MR_GRUMPY said:Tubulars are for racing........or if you consider yourself a "retro-guy".
If you glue them on so that you can change them on the road quickly, you haven't used enough glue to prevent "roll-off" in really hard cornering. If you feel that they give you improved "road feel", you better check under your mattress for a pea.
I cant get as strong as others who have been cycling/racing for years when just starting out so I look for lighter and better equipment to maximize my lack of potential. I would love to dedicate that money I spent on cycling to other things if I could keep up with the group on a beat up old wal-mart bike.
If the label you quote is accurate, these are current version Vittoria tubulars. Those have pretty smooth round bases. What you describe here should not be happening. The Arayas (you're talking about the 16B Gold rims?) have fairly bulky ferrules that cause the tire to sit up a bit, but I have glued plenty of tubulars onto them without a problem. Without photos, I'd guess at a couple different things:onespeedbiker said:I've been riding for 30 years and do all my own wrenching. This is my first try at sewups, I tried three times to get this right and it's no good. I have a wheel set with Araya gold rims. The tires are Vittoria Corsa Evo Ex using Vittoria Mastik. I have followed all the directions on youtube and the tire simply will not lay down on the rim, leaving a space on one side. The tires have a distinct bead down the middle of the bottom tape, always resulting in a V shape and the tire will conform to the rim. I'm already looking to replace the tubular rims with clinchers.
1. Not really enough glue used on the rim. That doesn't mean you use glue to fill gaps, but if you didn't have enough glue for the job then the edges might not seem glued right.
2. Are you using 19 mm tires? Those rims have a shallow tire bed so if you use a very narrow tire, it sits on the center of the base tape and the edges already are curving away from the rim. Nothing will fix that, including strapping the tire down. The two dimensions simply don't match and riding will cause the edges to pull away or, if the glue job is very strong, will cause the base tapes to start pulling off the tubulars. I'm guessing this may be the big issue here.
Please provide a photo to help diagnose tubular problems. It really helps.
Takmanjapan says...
Try tubular tape instead. I love it. No problems with roll-off and it cleans off the rim neatly with a little thumb pressure. I also used glue but it was too messy and a pain in the neck. I have been using tubulars now for about 10 years and I think its better bang for the buck. Plus there is no worry about pinch flats.
Admittedly, I use Vittoria Rally's and they are cheap but after a 1000km or so on my rough roads in Japanland the treads are all cut up and shot anyway. A new Vittoria Rally is about the same cost as a good lightweight clincher tube. Good clincher tires cost a fortune and aer not worth it in my opinion since my treadlife is so short.
Try tubular tape instead. I love it. No problems with roll-off and it cleans off the rim neatly with a little thumb pressure. I also used glue but it was too messy and a pain in the neck. I have been using tubulars now for about 10 years and I think its better bang for the buck. Plus there is no worry about pinch flats.
Admittedly, I use Vittoria Rally's and they are cheap but after a 1000km or so on my rough roads in Japanland the treads are all cut up and shot anyway. A new Vittoria Rally is about the same cost as a good lightweight clincher tube. Good clincher tires cost a fortune and aer not worth it in my opinion since my treadlife is so short.
Tubular tape isn't the solution to the OP's problem.takmanjapan said:Try tubular tape instead. I love it. No problems with roll-off and it cleans off the rim neatly with a little thumb pressure. I also used glue but it was too messy and a pain in the neck. I have been using tubulars now for about 10 years and I think its better bang for the buck. Plus there is no worry about pinch flats.
Admittedly, I use Vittoria Rally's and they are cheap but after a 1000km or so on my rough roads in Japanland the treads are all cut up and shot anyway. A new Vittoria Rally is about the same cost as a good lightweight clincher tube. Good clincher tires cost a fortune and aer not worth it in my opinion since my treadlife is so short.
Nope, not smooth round bases; I wish. here are some photos. One is a tire I glued (3rd time) and pulled off again. The second is a unglued tire. You can see a very obvious cord running down the middle of the bottom tape. and trust me, too little glue is not the problem. Label reads. Corsa Evo-CX 21-28". After gluing I pumped them up to 160lbs.11.4 said:If the label you quote is accurate, these are current version Vittoria tubulars. Those have pretty smooth round bases. What you describe here should not be happening. The Arayas (you're talking about the 16B Gold rims?) have fairly bulky ferrules that cause the tire to sit up a bit, but I have glued plenty of tubulars onto them without a problem. Without photos, I'd guess at a couple different things:
1. Not really enough glue used on the rim. That doesn't mean you use glue to fill gaps, but if you didn't have enough glue for the job then the edges might not seem glued right.
2. Are you using 19 mm tires? Those rims have a shallow tire bed so if you use a very narrow tire, it sits on the center of the base tape and the edges already are curving away from the rim. Nothing will fix that, including strapping the tire down. The two dimensions simply don't match and riding will cause the edges to pull away or, if the glue job is very strong, will cause the base tapes to start pulling off the tubulars. I'm guessing this may be the big issue here.
Please provide a photo to help diagnose tubular problems. It really helps.
What edge
Just what edge do you think you're getting? Tubulars don't roll faster, and can often be slower. The magic ride is felt by some and not at all by others. Even if you go with the super zoot low weight high dollar CF wheels, the difference on the flats is still essentially zero and while climbing, the weight savings works out to a handful of seconds every hour. Just saying.JimT said:How about guys like me that would like to get every performance edge they can
CX 21 on an Araya 16B Gold rim? Photo of the glued up tire on the rim, or at a minimum of the rim after you pulled the tire off? This does look like a tire base tape not matching the curvature of the tire bed. That it's a 21 on a 16B makes this rather likely.
It's the placebo effect!!!Kerry Irons said:Just what edge do you think you're getting? Tubulars don't roll faster, and can often be slower. The magic ride is felt by some and not at all by others. Even if you go with the super zoot low weight high dollar CF wheels, the difference on the flats is still essentially zero and while climbing, the weight savings works out to a handful of seconds every hour. Just saying.
The aero and weight difference may only add up to a few seconds but for some even if not racing that is a motivator and the cool looks are enough to keep someone motivated enough to want to keep getting on their bikes to keep improving and maybe race one day.
Did ya know, the performance difference between an aluminum bike and a CF bike may only be only a handful of seconds and the comfort difference may be negligable, that being the said why dont only racers use them? Just Sayin...
Already pulled the tires, but here is a picture of the rim. If there is some mismatch, how would I know if tire base curvature will match my rim? I've never heard of such a thing.11.4 said:CX 21 on an Araya 16B Gold rim? Photo of the glued up tire on the rim, or at a minimum of the rim after you pulled the tire off? This does look like a tire base tape not matching the curvature of the tire bed. That it's a 21 on a 16B makes this rather likely.
some rim/tyre combos dont work too well
i had a similar prob with some ambrosio rims and conti tyres
still used them for racing without any issues at all, just didnt look all that neat around the edges
i had a similar prob with some ambrosio rims and conti tyres
still used them for racing without any issues at all, just didnt look all that neat around the edges
Unfortunately this is not a matter of neatness, generally one side had little or no contact with the rim.alexb618 said:some rim/tyre combos dont work too well
i had a similar prob with some ambrosio rims and conti tyres
still used them for racing without any issues at all, just didnt look all that neat around the edges
OK, a couple suggestions:
1. You aren't gluing right up to the top of the tire bed. Most of the gluing efficiency depends on the two or three millimeters at the very outside of the tire bed.
2. The glue doesn't look quite right. With Mastik One, you should have a thicker coat on the rim that's at least as high as the ferrules. On your rim, the ferrules still sit higher. Also, when you pulled the tire off you should see the texture of the base tape in significant amounts all over the glue on the rim, but I see almost none. Possibly you let the glue dry too far before mounting the tire? But I think the gluing job was deficient. Much of the glue surface on the rim doesn't show signs of having bonded with the glue on the tire.
3. There's very little sign of adhesion anywhere except on the centerline of the rim. Some of this has to do with points 1 and 2 above, but some has to do with the bad fit of the small tire to the relatively wide shallow rim.
From what I can see you could make this tire work on this rim with a good glue job. Sounds like you followed some written instructions or some mediocre ones. Go to www.velocipedesalon.com and check out the gluing images done by zank. There are other places as well, but there's lots of bad instruction on gluing out on the internet. You can make this work correctly.
1. You aren't gluing right up to the top of the tire bed. Most of the gluing efficiency depends on the two or three millimeters at the very outside of the tire bed.
2. The glue doesn't look quite right. With Mastik One, you should have a thicker coat on the rim that's at least as high as the ferrules. On your rim, the ferrules still sit higher. Also, when you pulled the tire off you should see the texture of the base tape in significant amounts all over the glue on the rim, but I see almost none. Possibly you let the glue dry too far before mounting the tire? But I think the gluing job was deficient. Much of the glue surface on the rim doesn't show signs of having bonded with the glue on the tire.
3. There's very little sign of adhesion anywhere except on the centerline of the rim. Some of this has to do with points 1 and 2 above, but some has to do with the bad fit of the small tire to the relatively wide shallow rim.
From what I can see you could make this tire work on this rim with a good glue job. Sounds like you followed some written instructions or some mediocre ones. Go to www.velocipedesalon.com and check out the gluing images done by zank. There are other places as well, but there's lots of bad instruction on gluing out on the internet. You can make this work correctly.
Okay I read up on this issue and it appears there is a mismatch. But as I asked before, How do I know what tires to by now. I can't keep buying tires until I find one that will fit. I'm guessing I'll have to go to wider tire like 25-27?? The NJS tires are 1 1/8 (28.6)
a conti 23 will be wider than a vittoria 23 from my experience
try a conti sprinter maybe, cheap and reliable, i dont know anyone who has ever had issues with this tyre
try a conti sprinter maybe, cheap and reliable, i dont know anyone who has ever had issues with this tyre
There was more glue on the rim than it seems, the entire surface had an even coating; the result 3 good coats and almost a tube per tire; most of the glue transferred to the tire as I was trying to jockey the tire around (at one point I almost turned the tire sideways trying to get both sides against the rim) and the rest came off when I removed the tire. As far as most the adhesion being on the center line, that's the problem! there was no force pushing the tire sideways at all. I can certainly use more glue as you suggest, but even with the tire fully inflated, one side would appear to be against the inside of the rim and the other side had a millimeter or 2 gap all the way to the center bead. All the glue in the world will not work if you can't get the tire and rim wall to come together. As I mentioned in my most recent post, I can see there is a substantial mismatch here. What should I be looking for so it won't happen again. I'm not trying to blow off your help, it's just there was never a point where I was able to get both side of the tire to contact the rim at the same time without turning it sideways. This included using about 25 zip tyes trying to force the bottom tape to conform. It simply wouldn't lay down. I see that these rims are NJS and I couldn't help but notice that NJS tires are 1 1/8 or 28.6mm. This might be an indication of the problem.11.4 said:OK, a couple suggestions:
1. You aren't gluing right up to the top of the tire bed. Most of the gluing efficiency depends on the two or three millimeters at the very outside of the tire bed.
2. The glue doesn't look quite right. With Mastik One, you should have a thicker coat on the rim that's at least as high as the ferrules. On your rim, the ferrules still sit higher. Also, when you pulled the tire off you should see the texture of the base tape in significant amounts all over the glue on the rim, but I see almost none. Possibly you let the glue dry too far before mounting the tire? But I think the gluing job was deficient. Much of the glue surface on the rim doesn't show signs of having bonded with the glue on the tire.
3. There's very little sign of adhesion anywhere except on the centerline of the rim. Some of this has to do with points 1 and 2 above, but some has to do with the bad fit of the small tire to the relatively wide shallow rim.
From what I can see you could make this tire work on this rim with a good glue job. Sounds like you followed some written instructions or some mediocre ones. Go to www.velocipedesalon.com and check out the gluing images done by zank. There are other places as well, but there's lots of bad instruction on gluing out on the internet. You can make this work correctly.
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