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I know both of these people.
I have stood on a podium with Baatz, he won, I was 3rd.
Dopers suck.
I guess you were second now. :)
I tried helping a 60 plus master get his bike back together after a crash. I would have liked to have attributed his aggressive and surly nature to post crash adrenaline but I'm going with too much T and diabanol

I think USAC should set up a surprise tent @ some events regionally and test the entire field just to get a baseline
 

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A certain percentage of people have to win, and they'll do just about anything to do it.
Just last weekend, in a local TT, a rider buzzed passed me.....with another rider on his wheel. A hundred yards up, they rotated positions. (This wasn't a TTT) I reported their numbers, but I guess that there wasn't anybody else ratting them out.....Made me pizzed.
 

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They both won their respective events, which made me wonder how far into the fields they went with the testing. I'm not familiar with the Tour of Corsicana or how big it is, but Tulsa Tough is a fairly well-known event. Were these targeted tests, or just something for the winners?
 

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They both won their respective events, which made me wonder how far into the fields they went with the testing. I'm not familiar with the Tour of Corsicana or how big it is, but Tulsa Tough is a fairly well-known event. Were these targeted tests, or just something for the winners?
Not sure, but probably just the podium finishers were tested.
 

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Corsicana is early season but a pretty well attended event that is growing in prestige and popularity. Had team-mates there, but I don't know what ended up going down testing wise.

Tulsa Tough did both winner and quite a few 'at random.' I was there and they kept announcing it that you needed to check the board to see if your number was to be tested. I don't personally know anyone tested, but there were quite a few in many fields that were tested.

Wonder if they will do Gateway Labor day?

Hopefully the currently strategy of primarily testing BIG events wont just cause the dopers to skip those events. Time will tell.

and as creaky said. Dopers suck!
 

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What if you get popped because you have a 'script?

With masters who have dwindling natural T levels and the doc gives you a 'script should you be exempt? Male HRT is becoming more prevalent and not just with athletes. It has been mainstream with women for decades.

Serious question.
 

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For non-competitive amateurs, there's a TUE--therapeutic exemption for most things, even T now. You have to have the TUE prior to competing (and thus being tested). For competitive amateurs and Pros there are TUEs for some things, but not for T and EPO and the like.
 

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The very, very experienced woman cyclist who popped is... married to a sports and family medicine doctor who used to be a racer himself, according to the interweb.

And the USADA release says: Ciolli argued that the failed test was the result of a prescription medication and an over-the-counter product, taken under the guidance of a physician."

Hard to tell much bout that one without USADA being more clear about the circumstances. On one hand, the release almost sounds like it was reluctant to hit her, softening its usual tone a bit, wringing its hands about the sad lack of a TUE. Unclear which item was in the prescription and which was in a supplement or over the counter medicine.....Yet she seems like she could scarcely have been better equipped to understand the issues involved in any prescription involving either of those two things.
 

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What if you get popped because you have a 'script?

With masters who have dwindling natural T levels and the doc gives you a 'script should you be exempt? Male HRT is becoming more prevalent and not just with athletes. It has been mainstream with women for decades.

Serious question.
AFAIK, female HRT isn't banned because it isn't performance enhancing. T is banned. A 'script from your doctor is irrelevant.

Your level of T is supposed to dwindle. It's called aging.
 

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I read an article several months ago that detailed how LA did it and what dopers were doing now. The article also said that the internet has inadvertently ushered in a whole new age of doping. It said drugs are readily available on the internet (and no, I have not verified this). And the article suggested that doping was increasing in not only the amateur ranks, but even in non-competitive events (bragging rights apparently so a rider could say they've done their first century or kept up with their boss on a group ride).

The article also discussed motivation. Yes some people just have to win. But some people just don't want to come in last. It is easy to assume that those competing at the highest levels are doping, but there are a growing number of riders who are just trying to make it to the next level or are trying to keep their position on a team. If they lose their job on the team, or can't make it onto a pro team, the only thing they have to fall back on is flipping burgers back home.

I wish I could find that article again.
 

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If you find the article, please PM it to me and post it for others.

Additionally, the concepts you talk about are discussed in the documentary Bigger, Stronger, Faster which (IMO) covers some of the key themes in doping, the desire to win, the consequences of that desire, and how self rationalization and confirmation bias cloud evidence based approaches.
 

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What if you get popped because you have a 'script?

With masters who have dwindling natural T levels and the doc gives you a 'script should you be exempt? Male HRT is becoming more prevalent and not just with athletes. It has been mainstream with women for decades.

Serious question.
Then you should get banned even longer for being even more stupid.
 

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Corsicana is a standard issue grassroots small time local stage race. Nothing major about it, and nowhere near the scale of Tulsa Tough. I won $50 and a small wood plaque for 3rd on GC. Total race prize list was maybe $5k if that.

Baatz was tested 3 times that i know of. GC 1st in 2014, apparently he passed. GC 1st and also Crit 1st, two separate tests, in 2016. I guess one or both of those popped him.

In 2016, they announced that USADA was onsite as we stood on the start line of the crit (after having already done the morning TT) - I like that approach as it makes it more difficult to quietly disappear from the race. They (as I recall) tested stage winners and GC and a few randoms. Not all categories were tested, all I know for sure is Masters and the P12's. Maybe Women Open but can't recall.
 

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What if you get popped because you have a 'script?

With masters who have dwindling natural T levels and the doc gives you a 'script should you be exempt? Male HRT is becoming more prevalent and not just with athletes. It has been mainstream with women for decades.

Serious question.
It is a good question. What exactly did these and other masters get busted for?

I don't race and know little of amateur racing but your question is legit and how can HRT be determined to be illegal? Blood levels of testosterone or IGF-1?

What about Thyroid hormone or insulin?

I don't prescribe HRT but co manage patients all well over 40 and most late 50's - late 60's on HRT. It's not a big part of my practice but it's dozens of patients over the years and getting bigger every year. The common MD supervised Anti aging protocol includes testosterone, HGH, Thyroid, Hcg and an aromatase inhibitor. I also have patients that do the "Bro Science" black market sources. Due to the extreme danger and legality of the latter I highly discourage and advise against this approach but I have seen the blood work of these amateur endocrinologists.

I've seen pre and post blood work and not sure what doping tests look for, if it's blood levels of testosterone or thyroid hormone, the MD supervised approach is to balance levels to acceptable norm, i.e. normal thyroid range (male and female) and testosterone range between 600-800 (males 50's-70).

To put that in perspective, my blood thyroid is in range and testosterone (61 yo male) ranges from 450-500 not on TRT or thyroid meds. I get my blood done twice a year. I have some patients late 50's with full natty 800 testosterone and some 30 yo males under 200 testosterone. I have some 50-60yo patients full on HRT that get to 600-700 testosterone and normal thyroid. They are taking .5-.7ml testosterone weekly, twice weekly Hcg and thyroid daily to get those levels.

Do they test for "exogenous" testosterone? Well that's not a good test as the exogenous test is gone in about 4-5 days.

I have no experience with EPO or Clen but think they can easily be detected.
 

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It is a good question. What exactly did these and other masters get busted for?

I don't race and know little of amateur racing but your question is legit and how can HRT be determined to be illegal? Blood levels of testosterone or IGF-1?

What about Thyroid hormone or insulin?

I don't prescribe HRT but co manage patients all well over 40 and most late 50's - late 60's on HRT. It's not a big part of my practice but it's dozens of patients over the years and getting bigger every year. The common MD supervised Anti aging protocol includes testosterone, HGH, Thyroid, Hcg and an aromatase inhibitor. I also have patients that do the "Bro Science" black market sources. Due to the extreme danger and legality of the latter I highly discourage and advise against this approach but I have seen the blood work of these amateur endocrinologists.

[. . .]

Do they test for "exogenous" testosterone? Well that's not a good test as the exogenous test is gone in about 4-5 days.

I have no experience with EPO or Clen but think they can easily be detected.
Here is a good story on amauter doping from Velo News. Since then, some things have changed.

Here's USA Cycling on non-national (non-competetive) masters and requests for TUEs. And here's USADA on non-national athletes. USA Cycling has a further set of rules for Recreational Competitor--see the USA Cycling link.

Basically, if you're old, haven't been popped for doping in the past, don't win, don't compete in national, international, or regional events with 50+ fields, don't come in 1st, 2nd, or 3rd you can get a TUE before or after the fact.
 

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Here is a good story on amauter doping from Velo News. Since then, some things have changed.

Here's USA Cycling on non-national (non-competetive) masters and requests for TUEs. And here's USADA on non-national athletes. USA Cycling has a further set of rules for Recreational Competitor--see the USA Cycling link.

Basically, if you're old, haven't been popped for doping in the past, don't win, don't compete in national, international, or regional events with 50+ fields, don't come in 1st, 2nd, or 3rd you can get a TUE before or after the fact.
Great links and your summary of TUE is very good. Also answers my question about how they would test for exogenous testosterone. The Velo News link about the email exchange shows how they get the circumstantial evidence on a tip.

Still leaves a lot of opportunity for those who are cheating but flying testers to the dudes house out of competition is definitely they way to catch these guys.

Another point I'd like to make is the real benefits of doping are really exaggerated in the competitors eyes compared to what I've seen clinically. The masters racer in that Velo News link is a great example of that. During the email exchange he repeatedly states that he's not making the gains he thought he should and is pressing the double agent for info on other PED's to get the gains he wants. The dude is already on most of the major PED's and he doesn't notice much improvement. He does say he has more power but gained 10lbs from the anabolics, but that doesn't translate to performance gains.

Besides that, there are good "responders" but there are many more bad "responders" in the 50+ group. I can tell you between side effects and some basic physiologic differences in humans, maybe 20-25% of patients on anti aging HRT end up with some major issues. I've seen blood pressure spikes, prostate issues, liver enzyme spikes, kidney function compromised and behavioral issues (roid rage does manifest in some). I've seen the most gains in the body building/weight lifting/cross fit patients, but even there just being on the gear without hard work in the gym shows no noticeable benefit. In other sports, such as cycling and running, I've seen little performance gains from guys that were on really good protocols. I've ridden with some of these guys and can say objectively that genetics, training, nutrition and hydration play such a far bigger role that a drug regimen at its best is insignificant to actual performance in the 50+ group.

I guess my point is (strictly from clinical observations on the older athletic patients) if you're a masters racer looking for performance gains I wouldn't gamble the health risks of a doping program. You would be better off with a good coach and training program, nutritional guidance and hard work.

For the pros who's job depends on stage wins, dragging the team up the mountains, crashing hard then getting back in the race and carrying 20lbs of water from team car and doing this more hours than a real job, yeah doping will keep you in the race and on the team.

Cat 1 master who never makes the podium - doping is not going to put that rider on the podium IMHO
 

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Why do we care about amateur doping? The costs to do the proper testing are only going to hurt participation in amateur bike racing all the more.

For amateurs, make it wide open. The reality is that the money poured into equipment, training, nutrition, coaching, etc are also big factors in winning at the amateur level. Why not add meds to that list and be done with it? If it matters that much to a person to dope at the amateur level, more power to them. At least give it a try - allow amateurs to dope. Seriously.
 

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Yeah, seriously. Just let amateurs dope themselves. Nevermind the myriad of health consequences. Nevermind people just straight up DYING.

Yes, very socially responsible. Such a great idea. And hey, way to make sport fair for everyone.

How awesome to think that a seventeen year old could have that conversation with a cat 1. "Just a little HGH and EPO and I could be as fast as you!".

Brilliance.

And actually, no. The cost of letting rampant doping run unabated is what would kill amateur racing. I've raced over a dozen dudes that have been popped. Really takes something away from what you're accomplishing as well as what others are doing when drugs come into play.
 
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