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very interesting. i tried pulling on the crank in both directions as pictured in your blog and i didn't seem to get any play. perhaps i'm one of the lucky ones in that my BB shell seems to be within the campy parameters.

have you found a bb width that's ideal for the UT system?

i'm surprised that more complaints haven't risen. the UT system has been around for a few years now.
 

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posted many places...

The info has been posted on numerous websites. Now the only thing left is the retraction and damage control for all that misinformation. The whole thing is wrong and so is the attempt at a solution.
 

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C-40,
I'm obviously not going to be able to remove you from the theoretical world. I have come to realize that it's nearly impossible to have a rational conversation with you. It's not my style to walk away from this issue which I am experiencing, unlike you C-40, first hand. But I understand that It's your prerogative to not want to believe that this might be an issue. I will not, on the other hand, submit to your absurd request for me to make a retraction because that would be short-sighted and naive. Nor will I admit to promoting any misinformation until this is thoroughly investigated. Part of troubleshooting is brainstorming, testing theories and possible solutions. You should know that being a mechanical engineer with all of that experience. But, maybe when you have a chance, you can give me some suggestions that I can pass on to the 50+ people who have emailed in the last few days to tell me that they have a loud knocking coming from their UT system?

Best regards,

John
 

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I know of around 30 UT BBs on Mirage to Record sets used by racers who are doing around 400 - 500 miles per week on all sorts of frames from alu to high end carbon and so far not a single problem. I have however seen guys try to fit the bolt from the wrong way (opposite) which of course leaves a lot of play but they won't get even one turn of cranks that way!
 

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I've had knocking problems with my Chorus and it was down to the bearings.

Living in the UK, and riding throughout winter, the poorly sealed Campag bearings took a caning. They had to be regreased regularly to prevent knocking.

The eventual solution was to replace them with some yellow seal Boca ceramic bearings. Haven't subsequently needed to touch them in over a year.

I used a bearing puller as per the roues artisanales website instructions. 30 minute job.
 

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I don't see any sense in the Campy Ultra Torque setup. Campy is severely missing the basic single row ball bearing setup issue of the need to have lateral adjustment and/or support of the internal bearing races. Selective shims in small increments are needed for their current configuration and I have seen none.

I am interested to see what the Dura-Ace (can I say that here?) carbon setup is going to look like!.......... (are they all going insane!)

I haven't seen any BB30 yet, I am suspicious of that one too!
 

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don't agree...

You're working under with the idea that there is some practical way to include a shim pack that would allow the bearing play to be adjusted and still allow the BB width to vary by up to 1.6mm. Not only would this be slow and cumbersome, requiring either a precision dial indicator to verify the amount of play, it would not preload the bearings to eliminate all freeplay.

The wavy washer applies a preload force in the range of 25-60 pounds to the bearings and always insures ZERO freeplay. The idea of installing mutiple washers or shims on the left side is will only cause more problems with excessive preload tension.

While if may be that some people's pedaling action can cause enough side force to overcome the force of the wavy washer, it should not be common. If eliminating all movement is desired, the place to shim is between the right bearing the spring retainer clip, not the left side. Rogue went about a cure from the wrong side of the preceived problem.

A lot of the problems people are experiencing are from misinstallation, due to misunderstanding or not following the installation instructions. Misaligned BB threads can't be fixed and may cause repeated early bearing failure. Some people are just too lazy to have their BB faced and others may have problems caused by incorrect use of loctite.

The half spindle concept certainly eliminates the Shimano and FSA problem of the left crank arm loosening. A similar design is used by Specialized and Zipp for their latest cranks.
 

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Thanks for the additional information "C-40", although I believe there is an inherent problem in relying on the "wavy" washer. That amount of side loading is enough to wipe out bearing after bearing. I hadn't looked at what "Rogue" had done........ I guess I'll take a look.

The Shimano / FSA system with an adjuster and pinch bolts is the only one I depend on, although they are not "fool" proof either.

C-40 said:
You're working under with the idea that there is some practical way to include a shim pack that would allow the bearing play to be adjusted and still allow the BB width to vary by up to 1.6mm. Not only would this be slow and cumbersome, requiring either a precision dial indicator to verify the amount of play, it would not preload the bearings to eliminate all freeplay.

The wavy washer applies a preload force in the range of 25-60 pounds to the bearings and always insures ZERO freeplay. The idea of installing mutiple washers or shims on the left side is will only cause more problems with excessive preload tension.

While if may be that some people's pedaling action can cause enough side force to overcome the force of the wavy washer, it should not be common. If eliminating all movement is desired, the place to shim is between the right bearing the spring retainer clip, not the left side. Rogue went about a cure from the wrong side of the preceived problem.

A lot of the problems people are experiencing are from to misinstallation, due to misunderstanding or not following the installation instructions. Misaligned BB threads can't be fixed and may cause repeated early bearing failure. Some people are just too lazy to have their BB faced and others may have problems caused by incorrect use of loctite.

The half spindle concept certainly eliminates the Shimano and FSA problem of the left crank arm loosening. A similar design is used by Specialized and Zipp for their latest cranks.
 

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I have four different bikes all have had the bb threads chased and faced within Campy specs. All bolts have been installed to Campy torque specs. All four cranks have lateral play in them. All make a click sound when sprinting or going hard up a hill. I have taken apart, re-greased re-installed making sure everything is torque to spec...no solution. The play is still there and still all make a click sound due to the movement. Zipp and FSA do use a wavy washer just like Campy and they have lateral movement to. The difference is their movement is the whole shaft moving on the bearing. With Campy it is the bearing moving within the bb cup. I hate to say this but Campy's design is flawed....and this is coming from a long time Campy fan.
 

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???

kneejerk said:
Thanks for the additional information "C-40", although I believe there is an inherent problem in relying on the "wavy" washer. That amount of side loading is enough to wipe out bearing after bearing. I hadn't looked at what "Rogue" had done........ I guess I'll take a look.

The Shimano / FSA system with an adjuster and pinch bolts is the only one I depend on, although they are not "fool" proof either.
How is it that a measly side load of 25-60 lbs is enough to "wipe out" a bearing than can support many times that amount of radial load? You should go to a bearing manufacturer's website where they list appropriate loads for various bearings. I think you'll find that you're wrong. You can design a bearing to withstand substantial radial and axial loads.
 

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C-40 said:
How is it that a measly side load of 25-60 lbs is enough to "wipe out" a bearing than can support many times that amount of radial load? You should go to a bearing manufacturer's website where they list appropriate loads for various bearings. I think you'll find that you're wrong. You can design a bearing to withstand substantial radial and axial loads.
You have a good point there. I believe I may have been calling the kettle too black. Although, I have seen in other applications when single row ball bearings are side loaded and not supported they tend to come apart (get rough, prematurely). It may have to do with the balls and races contact points being compromised in the side loading.
 

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thoughts..

There should never be any axial movement, unless a force is applied that exceeds that which is imposed by the wavy washer. That is true whether the bearings are press fit onto the spindle, like Campy's or whether they are press fit into the cup and allowed to slip over the spindle. If the bearings are press fit into the cups, any fretting wear from axial movement will damage the expensive and nonreplaceable spindle, instead of a cheap bearing cup. If there is any real freeplay, then the wavy washer is shot or the BB is too short.

The amount if movement that is allowed in the UT system is limited by the spring clip on the right side. It should be only about .5mm. If you really think that is a source of a problem, shims could be installed between the spring clip and right bearing.

If you have worn bearing cups or damaged bearings, cleaning and regreasing won't fix that. Worn bearing cups can only be identified by measuring the ID, or at least looking for obvious signs of wear. The nickel plated cups might have the plating worn through, for example. In that case, spend $20 and get new cups.

Clicks could also come from simple problems like needing to lube the contact areas between the chainrings and crankarm spider and retighten the chainring mounting bolts.

Clicks and cup wear can also be the result of improper cup installation. The Campy instructions are not very good and may lead to problems. With new cups, I would always insure that the BB faces are square to the threads first, then grease the BB shell threads and torque the cups to spec rather than use loctite.

Misusing loctite is another potential problem. If the cups are new, they have a large amount of thread locking material on the threads. You can't leave that stuff in the threads and apply loctite over it. For one thing, it should be impossible to hand tighten the cups with the facotry thread locker in place. To use the loctite method, the factory apllied material should be remove completely before any loctite is applied. The loctite instructions clearly state that all threads must be clean, dry and free of foreign material before applying loctite.
 

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You are really reaching now "C-40"....... some more good points......... but, I think I'll just keep riding my Shimano crank set............ this is sounding more and more like a 1970's Fiat car!

C-40 said:
There should never be any axial movement, unless a force is applied that exceeds that which is imposed by the wavy washer. That is true whether the bearings are press fit onto the spindle, like Campy's or whether they are press fit into the cup and allowed to slip over the spindle. If the bearings are press fit into the cups, any fretting wear from axial movement will damage the expensive and nonreplaceable spindle, instead of a cheap bearing cup. If there is any real freeplay, then the wavy washer is shot or the BB is too short.

The amount if movement that is allowed in the UT system is limited by the spring clip on the right side. It should be only about .5mm. If you really think that is a source of a problem, shims could be installed between the spring clip and right bearing.

If you have worn bearing cups or damaged bearings, cleaning and regreasing won't fix that. Worn bearing cups can only be identified by measuring the ID, or at least looking for obvious signs of wear. The nickel plated cups might have the plating worn through, for example. In that case, spend $20 and get new cups.

Clicks could also come from simple problems like needing to lube the contact areas between the chainrings and crankarm spider and retighten the chainring mounting bolts.

Clicks and cup wear can also be the result of improper cup installation. The Campy instructions are not very good and may lead to problems. With new cups, I would always insure that the BB faces are square to the threads first, then grease the BB shell threads and torque the cups to spec rather than use loctite.

Misusing loctite is another potential problem. If the cups are new, they have a large amount of thread locking material on the threads. You can't leave that stuff in the threads and apply loctite over it. For one thing, it should be impossible to hand tighten the cups with the facotry thread locker in place. To use the loctite method, the factory apllied material should be remove completely before any loctite is applied. The loctite instructions clearly state that all threads must be clean, dry and free of foreign material before applying loctite.
 

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kneejerk said:
You are really reaching now "C-40"....... some more good points......... but, I think I'll just keep riding my Shimano crank set............ this is sounding more and more like a 1970's Fiat car!
A lot of the perceived problems are nothing but people's imagination and conjecture at work. They've got no real evidence of what their problem is, and spent hours disassembling and regreasing rather than spend $25-55 and just install some new bearings. If I had an actual knocking sound, that would be my first attempt at a cure, but I'd also not guess about whether the cups were installed correctly or whether they were worn. I'd measure for wear to be sure or just spend another $20 and get new cups, then be sure they are installed properly.

Just about every crank I've ever owned had a small creak at some point and it's almost always been the chainring mounting area that was at fault. A few drops of lube once a year and the problem usually never returns.

Folks using Shimano BBs probably just grease the threads and torque the cups into place, exactly the same as I've done with my Campy UT cups. I did absolutely nothing special when I installed mine, other than check the BB shell faces for squareness with feeler gages - about a 5 minute task. That was a lot cheaper and easier than facing a BB shell that didn't need it.

I've logged 4500 miles on my Chorus UT cranks this year and have had no problems at all. No creaks, no knocks and the cranks spin freely when spun without the chain.
 
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I have installed several UT cranks into a variety of frames without even as much care as C-40 takes and I have never had any trouble with them.

Previously I have used the loctite and hand tighten method for the cups, but I do have one bike now that I greased and torqued to spec. Since others have had good luck with it I thought I would try it and save the curing time.

I think one important upgrade in the 11-speed group is the hard anodized cups. The one part of my 10 speed group that showed age and wear was the cups that were corroding a bit on the outside.
 
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