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:eek: Another Postal/Disco rider goes down. Was there anyone on that team who was not a doper? :p
 

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Dweebus Maximus
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Public name = "Internal Anti-Doping Program", private name = "Internal Keep Our Riders From Testing Positive Program". For a multi-million dollar sponsorship it's a smart investment to proactively boot riders whose test values you can't keep under control. Much better from a PR perspective than actually having them get busted while riding for the team.
 

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Circlip said:
Public name = "Internal Anti-Doping Program", private name = "Internal Keep Our Riders From Testing Positive Program". For a multi-million dollar sponsorship it's a smart investment to proactively boot riders whose test values you can't keep under control. Much better from a PR perspective than actually having them get busted while riding for the team.
Here's what doesn't make sense. Nobody likes to get fired, and nobody likes to be the fall guy. He doesn't have a job, his career is tainted, and he's pretty pissed. Why wouldn't he spill the beans on the "program?"
 

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mohair_chair said:
Here's what doesn't make sense. Nobody likes to get fired, and nobody likes to be the fall guy. He doesn't have a job, his career is tainted, and he's pretty pissed. Why wouldn't he spill the beans on the "program?"
Yep, pretty hard to believe that there is organized doping going on AND they're firing riders for failing the tests.
 

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blackhat said:
really? because I'm reasonably sure "the cobra" was fired and Im also reasonably sure there was a top down program in place at SD.
The previous poster obviously meant Gusev was fired for failing a team given internal doping control, vs. Ricco who failed a doping control at the Tour. Do you not see a difference?
 

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blackhat said:
really? because I'm reasonably sure "the cobra" was fired and Im also reasonably sure there was a top down program in place at SD.
I wasn't really clear, only saying that organized doping plus internal controls with firing doesn't make sense.
 

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Racer C said:
The previous poster obviously meant Gusev was fired for failing a team given internal doping control, vs. Ricco who failed a doping control at the Tour. Do you not see a difference?
no. johan said they're releasing the internal test data after the vuelta so it would've been public knowledge soon enough anyways.
Im not saying his "abnormalities" mean there's systemic doping at festana, there's probably not, I'm saying that it doesn't mean there isn't.
 

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Dweebus Maximus
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SilasCL said:
I wasn't really clear, only saying that organized doping plus internal controls with firing doesn't make sense.
Omerta anyone? He never failed an official test, so he may be able to get hired by a decent team again in the future. Blow the whistle and he'll never find a job as a pro rider again.

I don't understand why anyone would find it difficult to fathom the concept that it's a pretty good deal for a marginally talented rider to get hired on with both the formal and informal understanding that if they can't stay on side of the controls, then the expected happens and they get released but also get to keep the (often very sizeable) earnings they have drawn up until that time for several years, free and clear. Financially it's often probably a much better position than they would have been in otherwise.
 

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The internal controls aren't really internal - they are performed and reported to the team by a third party - in the case of CSC and Astana that is done through Rasmus Daamsgard and seeing how outspoken he is about the the doping in the pro peloton I'd find it hard to believe that he'd let anomalous results be ignored by the team without publicly calling them on it. As easy as it is to be cynical and call the internal testing programs a method to prevent riders from getting caught, there are just too many flaws in that argument for it to pass mustard. If the riders are doping, there would be fewer possible points of failure when the doctor that facilitates the doping ensures the programs don't raise flags (a la Fuentes) than it is to have a publicized third party present a facade of internal testing.

In the case of Astana, I seriously doubt that they are actively doping riders - the chance of having an staffer get caught in the act is too risky. If anything, it's far more likely that the team knows what doctors will support the riders and help them avoid testing positive (or running afoul of the Damsgaard tests.)

Also, don't fool yourself. The the progressive longitudinal testing programs that these teams are running make Garmin, Columbia et al the darlings of the ASO (and UCI to a lesser degree.) Getting booted from Astana for failing an internal test may itself not be enough of a deterrence for teams to sign you, but I'm willing to bet that no one shows immediate interest in Gusev because the guy may not be allowed to race. Gonchar kinda disappeared after his anomolous test results at T-Mobile last year.
 

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Astana is getting it right, and look at teams that aren't getting it right and being reactive to a positive test as opposed to proactive to an abnormal blood value -- Barloworld (Duenas), Liquigas (Triki Beltran), Lampre (Patxi Vila), Saunier (Ricco, Piepoli), Cofidis (Moreni).

Another way to look at this is Johan isn't taking any chances -- you've got to wonder how many times admitted ex-doper Bjarne Riis has seen stinky blood values from one of his riders and decided to look the other way or had a sit-down with that rider and given him a second chance. I wouldn't beat up on Johan or Astana here. They got it right. There was no positive test; there was an abnormal blood result; bamm, the rider got fired before he embarrassed the team. You can't ask for more.

Milram also fired Igor Astaloa earlier this year for stinky blood values, not a failed test. I didn't see a lot of criticism on this board for that.
 

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No way Gusev was ever on any Astana "Program" He is far too much of a loose cannon.

Didn't he say he wanted to become a Porn Star when his career was over? Looks like he has the chance.
 

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Circlip said:
Omerta anyone? He never failed an official test, so he may be able to get hired by a decent team again in the future. Blow the whistle and he'll never find a job as a pro rider again.

I don't understand why anyone would find it difficult to fathom the concept that it's a pretty good deal for a marginally talented rider to get hired on with both the formal and informal understanding that if they can't stay on side of the controls, then the expected happens and they get released but also get to keep the (often very sizeable) earnings they have drawn up until that time for several years, free and clear. Financially it's often probably a much better position than they would have been in otherwise.

I thought Gusov was more than marginally talented. But maybe it was the juice? I have no quarrel with his dismissal. I do, however, also agree with the sentiment that these teams with "internal" controls will probably let one or two deviations pass with a warning.
 
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