Road Bike, Cycling Forums banner
1 - 18 of 18 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
156 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
My rear 404 FC 2012 hub keeps going loose and they go out of true very easily. I'm not sure if the hubs have any relation the the whole rim going out of true. Yesterday i was out on a ride and when i stand up to spring i can clearly hear the rim rub on the brakes. There is a lot of space as well between the pads and rim.

My mechanic trued the wheels and adjusted the hubs once already, his shop is Zipp certified and understands the hubs pretty well. However, the wheel did stay true for that long.

I think the 404 wheels are awesome, the rim is the key point. However the rear hub is lacking.

I am thinking of lacing a white industries H3 rear hub 20h 2x both sides with thicker spokes DS to avoid reliability altogether.

Is this common?
 

·
'brifter' is f'ing stupid
Joined
·
15,660 Posts
My rear 404 FC 2012 hub keeps going loose and they go out of true very easily. I'm not sure if the hubs have any relation the the whole rim going out of true. Yesterday i was out on a ride and when i stand up to spring i can clearly hear the rim rub on the brakes. There is a lot of space as well between the pads and rim.

My mechanic trued the wheels and adjusted the hubs once already, his shop is Zipp certified and understands the hubs pretty well. However, the wheel did stay true for that long.

I think the 404 wheels are awesome, the rim is the key point. However the rear hub is lacking.

I am thinking of lacing a white industries H3 rear hub 20h 2x both sides with thicker spokes DS to avoid reliability altogether.

Is this common?
you want to 'avoid' reliability altogether, do you? :skep:
 

·
So. Calif.
Joined
·
2,800 Posts
I've not had any problems on my 2010 Zipp404 with the 88/188 hubs (I weigh 162-163 lbs).

The NDS side of hub uses a split clamp that threads onto the axle to set bearing preload. The clamp is locked with a 2-2.5mm screw. Are you sure that screw is tightened properly??
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
156 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I've not had any problems on my 2010 Zipp404 with the 88/188 hubs (I weigh 162-163 lbs).

The NDS side of hub uses a split clamp that threads onto the axle to set bearing preload. The clamp is locked with a 2-2.5mm screw. Are you sure that screw is tightened properly??
i was thinking of this yesterday. the wheels are off my bike right now but i did adjust the preload screw. regardless, if the adjustment screw is loose it should have lateral movement since it is clamped to the cap and the cap is fixed by screw threads.

plus, i just had my mech adjust the hubs and true the wheels 2 weeeks ago and there is hub play. i weigh 80kg
 

·
So. Calif.
Joined
·
2,800 Posts
i was thinking of this yesterday. the wheels are off my bike right now but i did adjust the preload screw. regardless, if the adjustment screw is loose it should have lateral movement since it is clamped to the cap and the cap is fixed by screw threads.

plus, i just had my mech adjust the hubs and true the wheels 2 weeeks ago and there is hub play. i weigh 80kg
Maybe I'm not understanding you clearly, but NO, that small screw absolutely must be snug, so that the NDS split clamp positively does not rotate on the threaded part of axle (hold the axle firmly from DS when checking).

There should a very slight amount of axle play before the quick release is clamped tight (look @ Zipp website for their recommendation).

When the QR is clamped, that additional force should remove any remaining amount of axle/bearing looseness, and there should be no perceptible looseness when you wiggle the mounted wheel @ the rim, with your fingers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
156 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
Perfect,thanks for clearing things up. Is this a procedure that is required before every ride or frequently? As mentioned, I just had the hub and wheel trued less than two weeks ago and there is hub play right now and the wheel is a bit out of true again. I will adjust the preload clamp. I believe Zipp notes to straighten then loosen 1/16th of a turn? I didn't know the preload clamp had to be adjusted this often, if i knew I prob would have opted for other hubs/wheels.

by the way, users' are suppose to adjust the preload clamp while its on the bike right? It's hard to hold the DS axle to get the NDS clamp tight.

Frequent maintenance can be a PITA, I was thinking of rebuilding the hoops with White Industries hubs lacing 2x front 2x DS/NDS to get the most of out them and sell the 88/188 hubs.
 

·
So. Calif.
Joined
·
2,800 Posts
The pre-load clamp should rarely need re-adjustment. If it keeps coming loose, something else is wrong.

You might have to do the adjust with a bit of trial and error, ie
- clamp QR with wheel in frame.
- if you perceive axle/bearing looseness when pushing on rim, remove wheel, tighten preload clamp 1/16 turn, and snug the 2mm screw.
- reinstall wheel back into frame & check for any looseness.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
156 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
True but the hub coming loose is just one issue. The rear wheel was really out of true a few weeks ago and its a common issue with the 404's FC tub. I think the hoops are the gem stones of the whole wheels and the hubs are the drawback, at least the rear. Some might agree with me.
 

·
So. Calif.
Joined
·
2,800 Posts
My other thought regarding recurring out-of-true is, Is spoke tensioning correct?

Wheels can be true with spokes too loose ... and they will quickly go out of true, or spokes break, if this is the case.

It's surprising (well, maybe not!) how few bike shops understand this simple concept.

The spoke tension spec on my 2010 Zipps is:
Front: 100 kg-f.
Rear Freehub-side (right): 100 kg-f.
Rear Non-drive (left): 65 kg-f.

Individual spoke tension may deviate +/-20% to get the trueness correct, but the average on each side of the wheel should be close to spec.

A competent wheel builder should have one of those fancy $$ , DT Swiss guages for measuring tension.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
156 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
My other thought regarding recurring out-of-true is, Is spoke tensioning correct?

Wheels can be true with spokes too loose ... and they will quickly go out of true, or spokes break, if this is the case.

It's surprising (well, maybe not!) how few bike shops understand this simple concept.

The spoke tension spec on my 2010 Zipps is:
Front: 100 kg-f.
Rear Freehub-side (right): 100 kg-f.
Rear Non-drive (left): 65 kg-f.

Individual spoke tension may deviate +/-20% to get the trueness correct, but the average on each side of the wheel should be close to spec.

A competent wheel builder should have one of those fancy $$ , DT Swiss guages for measuring tension.
True, many factors take place such as spoke tensioning as you mentioned. However this is something that I do not want to bother with or shouldn't have to bother with when using high end wheels.

For example, right now I am back on my Camp Eurus wheels and damn! they are true and stiff as hell. Never been retrued since the factory and have over 2-3k (maybe even over) rough/climbing miles on them. I understand that Eurus wheels are more training/racing wheels and 404 FC tub are pure racing wheels but at that (404) price point and level, they should be on par.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
204 Posts
Zipp 188 rear hubs have known issues. Play/slack/slop developing on the rear hub is not unusual.

Even adjusting the pre-load, that starts to add grams of drag to the wheel, still leaves slop/play in the hub/bearings.

I personally don't like the 188 hub. They roll/run fine otherwise.

Also, just because a wheel moves between the brake pads, doesn't mean it isn't stiff.

The 188 hub is just a flawed piece of engineering for Zipp.

Get an Alchemy UL hub for the rear and have it rebuilt with CXRays again. Problem solved, and you save some weight. I wouldn't change anything with the lacing etc...just swap the hub and relace with the CRrays.

Cavendish for years has had all his Zipp 404s laced with Shimano hubs and different spokes for a stiffer wheel. Some pros ride the stock hubs oddly though...so personal preference is the difference.

If you want to swap the hub...I would do what I recommended above, but that is me personally. The White T11 hubs are fantastic hubs...can't go wrong with those also.

I'm secretly wishing my 188 hub implodes so I can relace my 303 FC with the new Alchemy UL hub and CXRays, make a great rim and fantastic wheel system, as it should have been originally by Zipp.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
156 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Zipp 188 rear hubs have known issues. Play/slack/slop developing on the rear hub is not unusual.

Even adjusting the pre-load, that starts to add grams of drag to the wheel, still leaves slop/play in the hub/bearings.

I personally don't like the 188 hub. They roll/run fine otherwise.

Also, just because a wheel moves between the brake pads, doesn't mean it isn't stiff.

The 188 hub is just a flawed piece of engineering for Zipp.

Get an Alchemy UL hub for the rear and have it rebuilt with CXRays again. Problem solved, and you save some weight. I wouldn't change anything with the lacing etc...just swap the hub and relace with the CRrays.

Cavendish for years has had all his Zipp 404s laced with Shimano hubs and different spokes for a stiffer wheel. Some pros ride the stock hubs oddly though...so personal preference is the difference.

If you want to swap the hub...I would do what I recommended above, but that is me personally. The White T11 hubs are fantastic hubs...can't go wrong with those also.

I'm secretly wishing my 188 hub implodes so I can relace my 303 FC with the new Alchemy UL hub and CXRays, make a great rim and fantastic wheel system, as it should have been originally by Zipp.
I was actually going to go this route and rebuild the 404 wheels set with WI T11 hubs, laced with Sapim race spokes for maximum durability.

On the other hand, since the 404 FC tub are 16f/20h rear, i'm not sure if it will make much of a difference. So the question now is, should i continue to try to make the 16/20 spoke wheel stiffer with WI hubs and bigger spokes?

I'm 80kg. I do a lot of climbing and riding on rough roads. At the moment, haven't raced for a long time due to long hours at work.

what do you experts think?

Thanks
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
204 Posts
I completely blanked when you wrote 404 FC. The 303 Tubs are 18-24...not an issue.

16-20...hmm...wonder what Cav does? He rides 404 FC Tubulars and he uses Shimano hubs, must be a custom rim, because I think he runs 28-32 spokes on the rear.

You can get the 404s in 16/20/24. Since you have a 20, you might have to look at finding a 24 and build it with a different hub then. Or just try a different hub altogether with 20 spokes.
 

·
So. Calif.
Joined
·
2,800 Posts
Zipp 188 rear hubs have known issues. Play/slack/slop developing on the rear hub is not unusual.

Even adjusting the pre-load, that starts to add grams of drag to the wheel, still leaves slop/play in the hub/bearings.

... The 188 hub is just a flawed piece of engineering for Zipp...
I don't have decades of experience with Zipps, only the 2010 models, but I have to say my experience with the 88/188 hubs has been totally different, ie satisfactory

s4one,
The aluminum Campy Shamal wheels are excellent, reasonably light, and durable.
I was using them until the front wheel was bent in a race crash recently. The cost of replacement rim + spokes (Campy only sells in full spoke kits, WTF?!) was nearly $300 with labor, and this is having searched web for lowest price genuine parts.
Ended up getting super-good deal on slightly heavier Zonda wheelset from Wiggle.

I do have to wonder at your using an ultra-low spoke count wheel (Zipp 404), and tubulars no less, for apparently everyday use.
Those are my race wheels, where you dont usually see monster potholes or large debris on the course (but lucky for me, I wasn't using Zipps when I crashed in race).

Even the pro riders are typically using lower cost, convenient, aluminum clinchers for training.
 

·
LOOK lover
Joined
·
616 Posts
I do have to wonder at your using an ultra-low spoke count wheel (Zipp 404), and tubulars no less, for apparently everyday use... Even the pro riders are typically using lower cost, convenient, aluminum clinchers for training.
That's cuz they get to race w/ fancy lightweight hoops every week. Working schmucks like us don't get that opportunity, so if we have a little discretionary money and want to spend it on nice wheels why shouldn't we?
 

·
So. Calif.
Joined
·
2,800 Posts
That's cuz they get to race w/ fancy lightweight hoops every week. Working schmucks like us don't get that opportunity, so if we have a little discretionary money and want to spend it on nice wheels why shouldn't we?
Nothing wrong with that, but IMO if the discretionary money is so tight, I wouldn't spend $1500-$2000 on ultra-lightweight tubular wheels, and then have that be my only wheelset.

JMO, if you only have enough $ for one wheelset, make it a reasonably durable aluminum set (like any of the Campy Shamal/Eurus/Zonda) which can be both everyday and race wheels, until the $ is available for a 2nd set of $$$ carbon rims for racing or "special occasions" ... even then, don't race what you're not willing to eventually have break.

Having said that, one of my friends (180 lbs) does ride Zipp 404 everyday, but his are 24 spokes front & rear. Used to be called "Clydesdale" version, now called "cyclocross" version :-/

Zipp rates even the 16/20 for riders up to 225-250 lbs, but I dont think that's realistic for high mileage, training usage..
 

·
LOOK lover
Joined
·
616 Posts
A reasonable approach if you can only afford one bike/wheelset. I don't race much anymore, but I've never been able to give up the feel of super nice wheels so ride the lightweight carbons everyday and save the backup bike w/ alum clinchers for bad weather/roads.

I think Zipps are more durable than people give them credit for - I raced a set of 404s (18/24) for 4 years (500 mi/yr) and then converted them to everyday use for another 4 years after I stopped racing (5,000 mi/yr). If I hadn't hit that dang pothole I'd still be riding them, but you can't argue with 17,500 miles with only one broken spoke and never going out of true (and I weighed 175-180 during the time I rode them).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
156 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I think the hubs are the main issue, I know Zipp engineering is trying to take the lead in the market. I understand, I've worked in the bicycle industry before and actually met a lot of the guys out there and experience a lot of production.

However, I think that the preload caps are a bit annoying. Gotta service them from time to time. I was going to replace the hubs for something more simple like WI or some other type but after thinking about the 16/20 hole count, this might not be a wise choice. Might just sell them.
 
1 - 18 of 18 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top