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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Was Andy S. just too good? He looked like he was just playing around yesterday- jumping from here to there, going to the back of the pack, accelerating up to the front, etc...

He either the most talented non doping climber I have ever seen live, OR something else-- that will go unmentioned, because it is not fair to make a allegation with no evidence. But come on!

EDIT: Forgot about the doping forum... moderators please remove. I am in moreon.
 

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Maybe! The following is from the running text of today’s race on www,cyclingnews.com. Very interesting! I hope that there is no smoke or fire in this case. If cycling were not in enough trouble already.

14:41 CEST
L'Equpe is reporting that French customs agents have stopped and searched the car of Johnny Schleck, father of Fränk and Andy. We will keep on top of this story and have more as soon as we can.
 

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mikeman said:
Maybe! The following is from the running text of today’s race on www,cyclingnews.com. Very interesting! I hope that there is no smoke or fire in this case. If cycling were not in enough trouble already.

14:41 CEST
L'Equpe is reporting that French customs agents have stopped and searched the car of Johnny Schleck, father of Fränk and Andy. We will keep on top of this story and have more as soon as we can.
French media have reported they found nothing according to Philippec
 

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Kestreljr said:
Was Andy S. just too good? He looked like he was just playing around yesterday- jumping from here to there, going to the back of the pack, accelerating up to the front, etc...

He either the most talented non doping climber I have ever seen live, OR something else-- that will go unmentioned, because it is not fair to make a allegation with no evidence. But come on!

EDIT: Forgot about the doping forum... moderators please remove. I am in moreon.
Not just Andy...but the whole team :blush2: and yes, this post will likely be moved.

People are saying that Sastres climb up Alp D'uez was within normal abilities for a good climber, but looking at the top 30 it's riddled with dopers and suspected dopers both above and below him.

Then take into account CSC has the #1, #2 on GC...the best Young Rider (white jersey) and are whooping up on the team competition it just makes you wonder how one team is completely dominating the best riders in the world.

Say what you will, but there is as much suspicion around CSC as there was around Festina and USPS/Discovery with Lance. The question is will they get caught like Festina or will people just talk about it like USPS/Discovery?
 

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was this after sastre jumped? If so i'm guessing he was just holding back because the last thing he should have been doing is giving evans another reason to up the pace.
he might have felt fresh with better legs then the evans (as shown at other climbing stages) but felt compelled to hold the reigns.
 

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Wookiebiker said:
People are saying that Sastres climb up Alp D'uez was within normal abilities for a good climber, <strong style="color:red;">but looking at the top 30 it's riddled with dopers and suspected dopers both above and below him.</strong>
I don't see this looking at the top 30 from yesterday. In fact, aside from Valverde's possible association with Puerto, I don't see any names in the top 30 that have been directly linked with doping - even by circumstantial association. The only reason that I see to say there are dopers in the top 30 is that they are pro cyclists. In the past that would have been enough to convince me. I will admit that CSC's dominance and their ability to have 5 or 6 riders left in a lead group of 20 is suspicious, but I'm not willing to spew accusations based on that — yet.

I'd be willing to go out on a limb and say based on what I know, that top 30 is pretty damn clean.

<span style="color:#4d4d4d;">From Cyclingnews
-------------------------------------------------
1 Carlos Sastre (Spa) CSC-Saxo Bank 6.07.58 (34.32 km/h)
2 Samuel Sanchez Gonzalez (Spa) Euskaltel - Euskadi 2.03
3 Andy Schleck (Lux) Team CSC - Saxo Bank
4 Alejandro Valverde Belmonte (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne 2.13
5 Frank Schleck (Lux) Team CSC - Saxo Bank
6 Vladimir Efimkin (Rus) AG2R La Mondiale 2.15
7 Cadel Evans (Aus) Silence - Lotto
8 Denis Menchov (Rus) Rabobank
9 Christian Vande Velde (USA) Team Garmin-Chipotle p/b H30
10 Bernhard Kohl (Aut) Gerolsteiner
11 Roman Kreuziger (Cze) Liquigas 3.11
12 Tadej Valjavec (Slo) AG2R La Mondiale 3.36
13 Stéphane Goubert (Fra) AG2R La Mondiale 3.50
14 David Moncoutié (Fra) Cofidis - Le Crédit par Téléphone 4.57
15 Nicolas Vogondy (Fra) Agritubel 5.16
16 Sandy Casar (Fra) Française des Jeux 5.25
17 Dmitriy Fofonov (Kaz) Crédit Agricole 5.28
18 Damiano Cunego (Ita) Lampre 5.32
19 Amaël Moinard (Fra) Cofidis - Le Crédit par Téléphone 5.40
20 Kim Kirchen (Lux) Team Columbia 6.01
21 Mario Aerts (Bel) Silence - Lotto
22 Kanstantsin Siutsou (Blr) Team Columbia 6.08
23 Alexandre Botcharov (Rus) Crédit Agricole 6.59
24 Pieter Weening (Ned) Rabobank 9.22
25 Gorka Verdugo Markotegi (Spa) Euskaltel - Euskadi
26 David Arroyo Duran (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne 10.12
27 Laurent Lefèvre (Fra) Bouygues Telecom
28 Koos Moerenhout (Ned) Rabobank 10.17
29 Sylvester Szmyd (Pol) Lampre 10.42
30 Cyril Dessel (Fra) AG2R La Mondiale 10.44</span>
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
fleck said:
was this after sastre jumped? If so i'm guessing he was just holding back because the last thing he should have been doing is giving evans another reason to up the pace.
he might have felt fresh with better legs then the evans (as shown at other climbing stages) but felt compelled to hold the reigns.

It was the entire climb! Every time someone went- he floated up to them, had a chat (as they wheezed and spit of exhaustion) and then would go back to his brother to say "He just attacked, I talked to him, he looks exhausted, I like cheese burgers, lets watch a movie tonight, don't forget to take your meds."
 

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gray8110 said:
I don't see this looking at the top 30 from yesterday. In fact, aside from Valverde's possible association with Puerto, I don't see any names in the top 30 that have been directly linked with doping - even by circumstantial association. The only reason that I see to say there are dopers in the top 30 is that they are pro cyclists. In the past that would have been enough to convince me. I will admit that CSC's dominance and their ability to have 5 or 6 riders left in a lead group of 20 is suspicious, but I'm not willing to spew accusations based on that — yet.

I'd be willing to go out on a limb and say based on what I know, that top 30 is pretty damn clean.

<span style="color:#4d4d4d;">From Cyclingnews
I think he was talking about top 30 all time.

Andy is over 9 minutes down. I don't think he is doping, unless he started mid tour.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
shades9323 said:
Andy is over 9 minutes down. I don't think he is doping, unless he started mid tour.
Or unless team strategy called for Andy to not push the pace in the first mountains, so that he could loose a few minutes and would be an unmarked man and thus able to help his team for the second set of mountains.
 

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Kestreljr said:
I think wookie was saying that Sastre's time was in the top 30 of all time- not of yesterday's competition.
It should be the Alp has only been ridden up during the race what 30 -40 times?
 

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Kestreljr said:
Or unless team strategy called for Andy to not push the pace in the first mountains, so that he could loose a few minutes and would be an unmarked man and thus able to help his team for the second set of mountains.
That would be pretty odd of a team that has tight internal doping controls to have a stategy that involves doping!:p
 

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Kestreljr said:
I think wookie was saying that Sastre's time was in the top 30 of all time- not of yesterday's competition.
Ahh... this list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpe_d'Huez#Ascent_times

That list is bogus below the top 10 - it's omitting a whole bunch of results from the 2004 TT. And there are a ton of riders that finished between 40 & 45 minutes not just in the TT, but also just came behind the leaders on road stages.

That said, Sastre won from the lead group (not the breakaway like Scheck's '06 win) His time is one of the slowest winning times in the last 20 years.
 

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gray8110 said:
I don't see this looking at the top 30 from yesterday. In fact, aside from Valverde's possible association with Puerto, I don't see any names in the top 30 that have been directly linked with doping - even by circumstantial association. The only reason that I see to say there are dopers in the top 30 is that they are pro cyclists. In the past that would have been enough to convince me. I will admit that CSC's dominance and their ability to have 5 or 6 riders left in a lead group of 20 is suspicious, but I'm not willing to spew accusations based on that — yet.

I'd be willing to go out on a limb and say based on what I know, that top 30 is pretty damn clean.
I was talking top 30 all time.....as others mentioned. If you take out the 2004 ITT they did he has the 13th fastest time up Alp D'uez and those with faster times in front of him have all either been found to have doped or are highly suspected...as well as those behind him.

If people are going to say...Look at Lance and who he beat. All he beat doped, so he must have doped. You must use the same logic here. If Sastre is putting up numbers like those on that climb and he has the 13th fastest time "Of All Time" up that climb one has to question the performance....whether clean or not, it's questionable...especially in this day and age.
 

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Kestreljr said:
And every time they race it there are 150 finishers, so there are thousands of finishing times... his was in the top 30.
The problem is that there is no one officially timing the climb and there is no "agreed on" official start to the climb so these stats are a bit meaningless. People are calculating these times by using a stopwatch to the video.

Additionally, if you can trust the data, even with "thousands" of finishers on the Alpe, it isn't that out of the ordinary to expect one winner (Sastre) out of 26 winners on the mountain to have one of the 30 fastest times.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
gray8110 said:
The problem is that there is no one officially timing the climb and there is no "agreed on" official start to the climb so these stats are a bit meaningless. People are calculating these times by using a stopwatch to the video.

Additionally, if you can trust the data, even with "thousands" of finishers on the Alpe, it isn't that out of the ordinary to expect one winner (Sastre) out of 26 winners on the mountain to have one of the 30 fastest times.
All good points, and Sastre might be legit. However, Andy is the focus for me. I think Andy could have peddled backwards and gotten up the hill faster then Sastre did. I think Andy could have taken a unicycle up the mountain yesterday and beat them. He was the most impressive rider on the mountain. If you go back and count, I bet he responded to at least 20 attacks, and never looked even close to tested.
 

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gray8110 said:
The problem is that there is no one officially timing the climb and there is no "agreed on" official start to the climb so these stats are a bit meaningless. People are calculating these times by using a stopwatch to the video.

Additionally, if you can trust the data, even with "thousands" of finishers on the Alpe, it isn't that out of the ordinary to expect one winner (Sastre) out of 26 winners on the mountain to have one of the 30 fastest times.
Don't just look at the results...look at the time. And yes, there is an agreed upon starting place where they measure the time for the climb...hence the times! I don't know the exact place, but it's been mentioned many times before.

Sastres time was only 2 minutes off a doped to the gills Pantani and Lances ITT time (with fresh legs. He's right in there with Ullrich, ahead of Vinikourov (spelling), and ahead of many other proven or suspected dopers.

I guess he's just that good and did it clean showing non dopers can beat dopers :rolleyes:

As for the teams doping controls...LOL! Any team can say they are doing something to control doping...which is exactly what they are doing IMO...controling the amounts so they don't get caught that is!

But then, I'm extremely cynical in this day and age of pro cycling. It's not that I don't love to watch them ride, I just don't think any of them are truly "Clean". And that includes Garmin/Slipstream, Highroad/Columbia and CSC.
 

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Kestreljr said:
All good points, and Sastre might be legit. However, Andy is the focus for me. I think Andy could have peddled backwards and gotten up the hill faster then Sastre did. I think Andy could have taken a unicycle up the mountain yesterday and beat them. He was the most impressive rider on the mountain. If you go back and count, I bet he responded to at least 20 attacks, and never looked even close to tested.
I would agree...but I have to wonder if the team has a system going on, when you look at the overall teams performance you have to sit back and wonder :rolleyes:

#1, #2 overall GC and another sitting just outside of the top 10. Leader of the best young rider category, leading the Team Catagory...totally dominating the mountains and I'd almost bet they all have better than normal ITT's on Saturday.
 
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