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duh...
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9,658 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
provided you are going to use them...
1- stress-relieve and re-true and use, or
2- de-tension, re-tension, stress-relieve, re-true?
 

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25.806975801127
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9,790 Posts
#3.

De-tension, replace nipples that have been destroyed by the machine, re-tension, stress-relieve, true, stress-relieve, true.
 

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A wheelist
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11,324 Posts
FatTireFred said:
provided you are going to use them...
1- stress-relieve and re-true and use, or
2- de-tension, re-tension, stress-relieve, re-true?
I'll add one more in there - equalize.
 

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Wheel Builder
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133 Posts
FatTireFred said:
provided you are going to use them...
1- stress-relieve and re-true and use, or
2- de-tension, re-tension, stress-relieve, re-true?
Doesn't matter who or what built them, the most important thing is consistent spoke tension, taking into account a properly/well stress relieved wheel. Second to that is overall trueness and dish. If the machine cobbled up the nipples, obviously you can't work with that. No need to untrue/unbuild a built wheel to bring it to a consistent level of proper spoke tension, you only need a spoke tensiometer and a truing stand.

Good luck.

*In reference above to a wheel's level of trueness, it is important, especially in high speed applications. But as a general reference, it's importance is largely over-emphasized with regards to its relation to wheel durability, as compared to consistent spoke tension.
 

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Online Wheel Builder
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3,213 Posts
machine built wheels are inferior
here is my logic

-rims are never perfect- so when a machine tensions a wheel to the perfect tension the wheel is often slightly out of true, a good wheel builder will compensate for this, a machine will not

-most machines for some strange reason cannot lace pull spokes elbows out. :mad2: any good wheel builder will lace elbows out because it increases stiffness significantly.

if you have a good wheel builder build the exact sam e wheel a machine does the person will build a stronger wheel
this is why lots of tour riders race on hand built wheels:D
 

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Wheel Builder
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133 Posts
Zen Cyclery said:
machine built wheels are inferior
here is my logic

-rims are never perfect- so when a machine tensions a wheel to the perfect tension the wheel is often slightly out of true, a good wheel builder will compensate for this, a machine will not

-most machines for some strange reason cannot lace pull spokes elbows out. :mad2: any good wheel builder will lace elbows out because it increases stiffness significantly.

if you have a good wheel builder build the exact sam e wheel a machine does the person will build a stronger wheel
this is why lots of tour riders race on hand built wheels:D

Which machines are you refering to?

My contention is that whether the pulling spokes are laced elbows out or elbows in, it doesn't matter. Maybe 20 years ago when spoke/metallurgy consistentcy wasn't computer machine controlled, it might have mattered, but not with today's quality spoke products and machine manufacturing processes. Being that I have wheels that old with pulling spokes elbows in, I'd say that's good enough for me.

Not to start a "my wheel's better than yours contest", but I've heard these types of arguments before, and it seems that whether pulling spokes are laced with elbows in or elbows out, as long as the build is quality, the wheel will serve well. In the old days, the one benefit of rear wheels laced with the pulling spokes elbows in, was that under load the pulling spoke would pull inward at the spoke cross, allowing for an extra degree of clearance for the rear derailuer.

The concept of wheel stiffness is interesting to me. Years ago it didn't seem to be an issue. In those days most wheels were laced three cross with either 32 or 36 spokes. That was pretty standard.

As the industry has progressed, and computers and engineers have advanced the industry's wheel technology, stiffness became an issue becuase products were entering the marketplace that were not "stiff". Low spoke count wheels can easily be perceived as not very stiff if they are not properly built/tensioned. That being said, a low spoke count wheel properly built and tensioned feels fine, and a 32 hole 3x wheel improperly built may not feel very stiff.

I'll definitely agree that most racers ride on hand built wheels, but then again everything on a racer's bike is typically modified/customized for that racer's exact fit or preference. That, and in most developing nations, the cost of hand building is less than an investment in technology.
 

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Online Wheel Builder
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3,213 Posts
cfoster said:
Which machines are you refering to?

My contention is that whether the pulling spokes are laced elbows out or elbows in, it doesn't matter. Maybe 20 years ago when spoke/metallurgy consistentcy wasn't computer machine controlled, it might have mattered, but not with today's quality spoke products and machine manufacturing processes. Being that I have wheels that old with pulling spokes elbows in, I'd say that's good enough for me.

Not to start a "my wheel's better than yours contest", but I've heard these types of arguments before, and it seems that whether pulling spokes are laced with elbows in or elbows out, as long as the build is quality, the wheel will serve well. In the old days, the one benefit of rear wheels laced with the pulling spokes elbows in, was that under load the pulling spoke would pull inward at the spoke cross, allowing for an extra degree of clearance for the rear derailuer.

The concept of wheel stiffness is interesting to me. Years ago it didn't seem to be an issue. In those days most wheels were laced three cross with either 32 or 36 spokes. That was pretty standard.

As the industry has progressed, and computers and engineers have advanced the industry's wheel technology, stiffness became an issue becuase products were entering the marketplace that were not "stiff". Low spoke count wheels can easily be perceived as not very stiff if they are not properly built/tensioned. That being said, a low spoke count wheel properly built and tensioned feels fine, and a 32 hole 3x wheel improperly built may not feel very stiff.

I'll definitely agree that most racers ride on hand built wheels, but then again everything on a racer's bike is typically modified/customized for that racer's exact fit or preference. That, and in most developing nations, the cost of hand building is less than an investment in technology.
ok your concerns are fair enough
the way machines build wheels is by measuring tension alon
i know for a fact because i have built many a wheel that no rim is perfect
if i were to build a radial front wheel with exactly equal spoke tension on every spoke the wheel would not be in round in true or in dish
this is because the rim is not perfect
when carbon, for example, is layed into a mold it is never perfectly even
the only way to compensate for these extremely small imperfections is to lace by hand

now onto elbows out on pull spokes
the vast majority of the time that you are on a bicycle you are applying power to the pedals
when you do this you are unloading the push spokes and loading the pull spokes
while you are applying power your push spokes are doing virtually nothing
because they very little tension on them it can be concluded that the pull spokes are holding up the wheel
because of his if you lace elbows out as apposed to elbows in you increase your bracing angle by about .5mm
now this may not seem like much but moving the spoke outward .5mm makes the bracing angle a few degrees more acute
this is paramount for 2 reasons
1 while turning the wheel will flex less under power
or even in a sprint as the bike goes from one side to the other it increases stiffness
2 since the spokes that are supporing the wheel most of the time are further out this helps decrease disparity of spoke tension between the drive and non drive
stressing the rim less causing it to last longer
 

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Wheel Builder
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133 Posts
Interesting...thanks.

I found on some velocity rim models that their sleeves extend past the first spoke holes on either side of the joint, and that the back of the nipple rests against the sleeve as supposed to the inside of the rim. Not a big deal, but it necessarily causes those two spokes to be "short" by 1mm or more. If your spoke length was already on the short side, you're out of luck...

Thanks for the info.
 

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Ride them.
 
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