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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
If i were to rebuild my 404 fc tub with WI hubs with sapim race spokes 2x ds/nds and radial or 2x (if possible) front, will i experience ultimate stiffness and reliability?

my only concern is thr 16/20 hole count. I want to avoid thr zipp stock hubs.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Those should build up to be pretty rigid, but there are options out there with wider flange spacing. The T11s will be a huge upgrade from the Zipp hubs though.
Thanks for your feedback, what other hub would you recommend? The WI hubs are easy for me to get my hands on which makes things more convenient.
 

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Well, I think the T11s are a great option. They are super durable, and it's hard to beat them in terms of serviceability. If you wanted to go with something that's a bit lighter (with wider flange spacing) you could always build up your rims into the Alchemy ELF/ORC UL hubs. Those hubs have wider flange spacing than the T11s, all though they are much more expensive, and not as easy to service. They would build up to be a bit more rigid though.
 

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If you wanted to go with something that's a bit lighter (with wider flange spacing) you could always build up your rims into the Alchemy ELF/ORC UL hubs. Those hubs have wider flange spacing than the T11s, all though they are much more expensive, and not as easy to service. They would build up to be a bit more rigid though.
I used to think the same until I run the numbers for a build I am involved with; you draw your own conclusions:

Alchemy ORC-UL-S11/C11
ds/nds.... Tds...... Tnds..... BAR
3x/3x...... 125...... 58.9..... 2.1
2x/3x...... 125...... 61........2.2...
3x/2x...... 125.......57.6..... 2.1
2x/2x...... 125...... 59.6..... 2.1


WI T-11 S11/C11
ds/nds.... Tds...... Tnds..... BAR
3x/3x...... 125...... 53.4..... 2.3
2x/3x...... 125...... 55.3..... 2.4
3x/2x.......125...... 52.2..... 2.3

Tds and Tnds in kgf; BAR bracing angle ratio nds/ds; the above numbers are for ERD=588 and 32 spokes, bracing angles through spokecalc, hub dimensions from manufacturer website; Tnds is calculated using the flange offset ratio and the spoke length ratio
 

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@dcgriz- Obviously the T11s aren't going to be as stiff as the Alchemys, but consider the price. The T11s are $250 cheaper and far easier to service. There definitely is some give and take.

All in all, the T11s are a much better bang for your buck option.
To the contrary, the T-11 shows better numbers on the stiffness department for this particular case and its doing so at the expense of NDS tension, as expected.
The resulting NDS tension of 53.4 kgf, when the DS tension is at 125 kgf, approaches the low limit of my comfort zone but its quite doable with spokeprep.

The Alchemy shows a lesser degree of stiffness, but still stiff enough for most people, assuming that a bracing angle ratio of around 2 may be the best compromise between stiffness and stability for the average rider. The payback is on the NDS tension where higher values are observed. It could be argued that the Alchemy may be a better rounded hub since it scores points on both the stiffness and stability departments. It may also be a better choice for a lighter rider, especially if his power output is up to moderate levels.

I don't disagree about the value of the T11. As a matter of fact, this would have been my choice for this particular case because I tend to favor stiffness up to the point where a lesser NDS tension is still manageable. The extra $250 in savings is an added incentive, although not my primary consideration; however the point is well taken.
 

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True and I may get a better deal compared to msrp. Anyone know about 2x lacing 16h front, possible?
I would say no to 2x with 16 spokes. Minimum number of spokes is 18 for 2x lacing.

I run your numbers for the rear wheel using an ERD of 526 and the T-11 hubs you were inquiring about.

For 2x/2x lacing and Tds=125kgf I got a bracing angle ratio of 2.3 and Tnds=53.4 kgf.
Lacing the NDS 3x ups the bracing angle ratio to 2.5 and the Tnds to 56 kgf.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I would say no to 2x with 16 spokes. Minimum number of spokes is 18 for 2x lacing.

I run your numbers for the rear wheel using an ERD of 526 and the T-11 hubs you were inquiring about.

For 2x/2x lacing and Tds=125kgf I got a bracing angle ratio of 2.3 and Tnds=53.4 kgf.
Lacing the NDS 3x ups the bracing angle ratio to 2.5 and the Tnds to 56 kgf.
Thanks, so what can i do to maximize stiffness? I plan to use radial lacing, alloy nipples, sapim race spokes with WI hub 16h
 

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Thanks, so what can i do to maximize stiffness? I plan to use radial lacing, alloy nipples, sapim race spokes with WI hub 16h
Wasn't the front wheel stiff enough with the Zipp components? Usually its the rear wheel that suffers.

The only cross lacing for 16h is 1x. The only sure way I rely on to increase wheel lateral stiffness from the spoke end is to use heavier (stiffer) spokes. Some have also laced 1x with heads-in, however I can not comment because I have never done it.

The question on my mind while I'm typing this is if your weight is appropriate for such low spoke count? If its not, then all of these things are band-aids and the problem will remain uncured.

Read this about rim rubbing and deep profile carbon rims where the hoop is excessively stiff (like the 404 is) and the spoke system is flexy due to type and number of spokes (like the 16 CX-rays) http://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Debunking_Wheel_Stiffness_3449.html#Scene
I think a lot of the answers you seek are in there.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Yes, the main flex and issue is the rear wheel/hub but I'd rather rebuild the front and back since I do not like the 'pre-load' hub adjustment technology.

I weigh about 80-82kg. Regarding spoke choice, I believe I will use Sapim Race spokes since the limited spoke count wont cause weight issues. I just want to rebuild the wheelset and get the most out of them.
 

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The article I linked covers exactly your wheel and your weight so the power output and the T-11 hub are the remaining variables. If you have the Zipp hub dimensions I can run them for you and see, theoretically at least, what effect the T-11 has on stiffness.

The author had to replace the wheel with one with 24 spokes for the rubbing to go away. I think you may be borderline with the 20.
 

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Thanks, so what can i do to maximize stiffness? I plan to use radial lacing, alloy nipples, sapim race spokes with WI hub 16h
Disregard my comment on 3x. I had a typo which I have since corrected and I forgot you wanted to stay with 20 spokes. The 2x values I've given you are accurate.
 
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