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I just bought a Scott Speedster s10 and for the cash its about the best deal Ive seen with a full ultegra kit and whatnot. All but the wheels, theyre very heavy and dont seem to want to roll very fast. After looking at a bunch of wheelsets I think ive settled on a pair of Neuvations. the question is should i get the aero wheelset or the normal roadwheels. The normal ones are a little bit lighter and i know that rotational mass is important to keep down but im wondering if the less resistance of the aero wheels compensates that and then some. I forgot the models im looking at but theyre pretty much the high end versions of each but not carbon. I normally do a 15-20 mile loop throughout the week and then a 50-70 mile on the weekend with plans for some centuries this summer. Also for tires how do you feel about the michelin pro2's vs the vredestein fortezza tricomps
 

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Assuming you're talking about the alloy clincher models and not the carbon wheels, then get the ones that you like best. Performance is going to be very similar in these models, and really the difference is going to be durability - how heavy are you?

.
 

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Are you a climbing machine (or hopeful) and/or live in an area with vicious crosswinds? Yes, then non-aero.

Do you go want to road race, do crits, and just go fast in the flats and rollers? Then aero.

I believe those are the key trade-offs.

fc
 

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francois said:
Are you a climbing machine (or hopeful) and/or live in an area with vicious crosswinds? Yes, then non-aero.

Do you go want to road race, do crits, and just go fast in the flats and rollers? Then aero.

I believe those are the key trade-offs.

fc
How so? How are aero wheels a detriment on climbs?
 

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Forrest Root said:
How so? How are aero wheels a detriment on climbs?
Typically aero wheels are heavier than the similar wheel with a low profile. While aero has generally been shown to be more beneficial due to drag reductions, there is a point where the force needed to accelerate a larger mass exceeds the aero benefit. With climbing you are forced to accelerate against gravity and you are going slower which reduces the aero benefit. In tight, twisty crits you accelerate out of corners very often. Low mass is beneficial there too.
 

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99trek5200 said:
Typically aero wheels are heavier than the similar wheel with a low profile. While aero has generally been shown to be more beneficial due to drag reductions, there is a point where the force needed to accelerate a larger mass exceeds the aero benefit. With climbing you are forced to accelerate against gravity and you are going slower which reduces the aero benefit. In tight, twisty crits you accelerate out of corners very often. Low mass is beneficial there too.
No kidding. Well, this is a good time to remind everyone just how little rotating mass matters on a bike. Two curves crossing on a plot doesn't necessarily mean anything, especially if there's a lack of perspective. The loads that increase with increasing road slope do so linearly with the slope, meaning they increase slowly. Moreover, the effect of changes in moment of inertia on bicycle acceleration are very small. They're small enough that someone wanting to buy a new set of wheels should buy them based on what they like, not how well suited they are for climbing.

Of course, given the wide variety of aero wheels and aero wheel build possibilities out there, there is no reason why someone can't have a lightweight set of aero wheels that "climbs well."
 

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I have the M28 Aero's, they are lighter than the 28/32h R500's w/formula hubs that I had. Are they faster, that would be questionable. Mentally they make me feel faster and that's all that counts:thumbsup: . I can however say that they do roll smoother than the replaced wheels and they somehow feel more lively. Probably due to the low spoke count and higher tension.
 

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Forrest Root said:
No kidding. Well, this is a good time to remind everyone just how little rotating mass matters on a bike. Two curves crossing on a plot doesn't necessarily mean anything, especially if there's a lack of perspective. The loads that increase with increasing road slope do so linearly with the slope, meaning they increase slowly. Moreover, the effect of changes in moment of inertia on bicycle acceleration are very small. They're small enough that someone wanting to buy a new set of wheels should buy them based on what they like, not how well suited they are for climbing.

Of course, given the wide variety of aero wheels and aero wheel build possibilities out there, there is no reason why someone can't have a lightweight set of aero wheels that "climbs well."
What if what they like is what's best suited for climbing? I thought you were going to remind me how little rotating mass mattered. Do you have a number? Something quantitative or scientific? What does "very small" mean when referencing the effect of changes in moment of inertia? Do you know how slowly or quickly the grades change on the OP's routes? Even if the grades aren't changing, you are accelerating both wheels every pedal revolution as you are climbing while standing.

All these questions seem like something you would ask, had someone else posted what you did.
 

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SleeveleSS said:
What if what they like is what's best suited for climbing? I thought you were going to remind me how little rotating mass mattered. Do you have a number? Something quantitative or scientific? What does "very small" mean when referencing the effect of changes in moment of inertia? Do you know how slowly or quickly the grades change on the OP's routes? Even if the grades aren't changing, you are accelerating both wheels every pedal revolution as you are climbing while standing.

All these questions seem like something you would ask, had someone else posted what you did.
:thumbsup: Ahhh, instant classic.

fc
 

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B15serv said:
I just bought a Scott Speedster s10 and for the cash its about the best deal Ive seen with a full ultegra kit and whatnot. All but the wheels, theyre very heavy and dont seem to want to roll very fast. After looking at a bunch of wheelsets I think ive settled on a pair of Neuvations. the question is should i get the aero wheelset or the normal roadwheels. The normal ones are a little bit lighter and i know that rotational mass is important to keep down but im wondering if the less resistance of the aero wheels compensates that and then some. I forgot the models im looking at but theyre pretty much the high end versions of each but not carbon. I normally do a 15-20 mile loop throughout the week and then a 50-70 mile on the weekend with plans for some centuries this summer. Also for tires how do you feel about the michelin pro2's vs the vredestein fortezza tricomps
What kind of wheelset did your bike come with?
 

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SleeveleSS said:
What if what they like is what's best suited for climbing? I thought you were going to remind me how little rotating mass mattered. Do you have a number? Something quantitative or scientific? What does "very small" mean when referencing the effect of changes in moment of inertia? Do you know how slowly or quickly the grades change on the OP's routes? Even if the grades aren't changing, you are accelerating both wheels every pedal revolution as you are climbing while standing.

All these questions seem like something you would ask, had someone else posted what you did.
There are no numbers to assign without specifics. However, it is easy enough for you and the other folks that have difficulty to go to Analytic Cycling and punch in some numbers. You should have someone help you figure out what correct numbers should be. You just can't punch keys and toggles like on a video game. Or, if you want an empirical (I know that's a big word for you, so here's the Wikipedia page that defines it.) analysis based on several hundred years of accepted Newtonian mechanics and experimental verification, you can read Mark McM's post, on this page, will give you that. If you're feeling really intellectually spunky, you can read some in either Classical Mechanics, by Goldstein, Poole & Safko, or Analytical Mechanics, by Fowles and Cassiday. Both are good texts. If your still confused, watching Bill Nye, the Science Guy might ease your pain.

I can't see where I said climbing wheels were bad, nor where I said, anywhere on any topic, that someone shouldn't buy what they like; however I did mean to imply that the idea that aero wheels can't be climbing wheels is wrong.

Golly! You mean wheels accelerate when they go up hill? Really? Wow. That's amazing. How many years in science did you have to spend before you learned that?

Gee whiz!
 

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Forrest Root said:
I can't see where I said climbing wheels were bad, nor where I said, anywhere on any topic, that someone shouldn't buy what they like; however I did mean to imply that the idea that aero wheels can't be climbing wheels is wrong.

Golly! You mean wheels accelerate when they go up hill? Really? Wow. That's amazing. How many years in science did you have to spend before you learned that?

Gee whiz!
Thanks for all the references. You said, "They're small enough that someone wanting to buy a new set of wheels should buy them based on what they like, not how well suited they are for climbing," in your original post. I merely responded with the question of "What if what they like is what's best suited for climbing?" You may think the differences are negligible for a lighter wheelset, but the differences of that lighter wheelset exist nonetheless.

As far as my comment on wheel acceleration, I mentioned it because you apparently don't grasp that concept, as confirmed by your latest post. You said "The loads that increase with increasing road slope do so linearly with the slope, meaning they increase slowly." What I was attempting to explain is that you don't just have to cope with the increased slope slowly, because when climbing, and especially when climbing standing, you're wheel speed is not constant. You don't just overcome the grade percentage point by percentage point, you are having to overcome the wheels moment of inertia and the effects of gravity with every downstoke. Sure you can climb on an aero wheel, but a non-aero wheel made of the same components should always be lighter with less material, and therefore "better" for climbing, whatever that means.

In the end, I'm not saying these differences do or do not matter enough to even consider, but you claimed that they don't. When people on this board claim they do, you chastise them and ask for references and sources. When you claim they don't, you give none. It's a bit of a double standard, and it's one that is merely funny in my eyes. It doesn't make two bits of difference really, since I have a feeling most people just ignore you and you aren't harming anyone, so my post was merely satirical. Apparently you didn't find it funny, but no need for the personal attacks with the "how many years in science" crap. If you can't stand the heat...
 

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SleeveleSS said:
n the end, I'm not saying these differences do or do not matter enough to even consider, but you claimed that they don't. When people on this board claim they do, you chastise them and ask for references and sources. When you claim they don't, you give none. It's a bit of a double standard, and it's one that is merely funny in my eyes. It doesn't make two bits of difference really, since I have a feeling most people just ignore you and you aren't harming anyone, so my post was merely satirical. Apparently you didn't find it funny, but no need for the personal attacks with the "how many years in science" crap. If you can't stand the heat...
Ah, what personal attack? You mean the one you lofted? What's not complete about loads increasing linearly with slope? That says nothing about how acceleration changes for a given bike component. Nowhere did I contradict anything I've ever said. You have either misread or don't truly understand the physics of what is going on.

Now, it's not my problem if the only reason you respond to a post is to levy a personal attack. No, that's more a statement about how you roll. I'll respond with questions and technical stuff when people contribute, a la Francois, to the perpetuation of myth and misunderstanding.

I am flattered that you cared enough to post, though, and if you asked me out on a date, I'd seriously consider saying yes because nothing turns me on more than a guy with such expansive and powerful insight, as you, as to be able to make grand personal judgements whilst sitting in front of a computer monitor.

I look forward to more of your scientific teachings, Master.
 

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Forrest Root said:
Ah, what personal attack? You mean the one you lofted? What's not complete about loads increasing linearly with slope? That says nothing about how acceleration changes for a given bike component. Nowhere did I contradict anything I've ever said. You have either misread or don't truly understand the physics of what is going on.

Now, it's not my problem if the only reason you respond to a post is to levy a personal attack. No, that's more a statement about how you roll. I'll respond with questions and technical stuff when people contribute, a la Francois, to the perpetuation of myth and misunderstanding.

I am flattered that you cared enough to post, though, and if you asked me out on a date, I'd seriously consider saying yes because nothing turns me on more than a guy with such expansive and powerful insight, as you, as to be able to make grand personal judgements whilst sitting in front of a computer monitor.

I look forward to more of your scientific teachings, Master.
Wow, obviously you are taking this much more seriously than I. This isn't going to lead anywhere positive, either humorous or informative, so I'll call it a day on this one.

P.S. I don't have time to date right now; all my time has been taken up studying that Wiki article on the meaning of "empirical." It's fascinating stuff really, but even when I've finally finished that, I still don't think it would work out. I don't date people who can't spell "judgments." :D
 
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