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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
where is everyone who was complaining about Vino's win at LBL, complaining about Basso taking the stage?
Were people spitting and booing Basso at slopes of Zoncolan?
Where are the posts: "When did Basso become POS?"

Admit to yourself, this is a clear double-standard.
 

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Because Basso's return to the sport has been less damaging than Vino's. Vino was unapologetic, still denies that he doped, and generally acted like a tool during his suspension. Basso just trained, posted his power files (including VO2max tests), and didn't make a media fuss about it.

Also, Basso averaged 395w on the final climb, which was 5.68w/kg for 41min. This is resonable, as many fresh domestic pros can average 5.5w/kg for an hour in a TT. For a world class athlete, who will probably win the Giro, to do 5.68w/kg at the end of this stage is believable...especially since just 4 years ago he probably would have been averaging well closer to 6.5w/kg.

From cyclingnews:
"Cycling has improved a lot. Things have really cleaned up. If either Ivan or Cadel win the Giro, we'll have the proof that you can win without doping. I totally trust them and I'm certain they wouldn't do anything to hurt me…."

Times for the climb and data calculated by Gazzetta dello Sport seemed to back up Sassi's hopes.

Basso climbed the 10.1km to the summit of Monte Zoncolan in a time of 40:45, one minute and 45 seconds slower than Gilberto Simoni in 2007. His average speed was 14.7km and he put out an average of 395 watts on the climb. The VAM (Velocità Ascensionale Media) or average climbing speed adjusted for the gradient, was calculated at 1777m/hour. Basso's strength to weight ratio was 5.68km/h [sic - w/kg]. In the past Sassi has said that any value over 6.2w/kg for a long effort on a major climb at the end of a stage race could be an indication of doping.​
 

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iliveonnitro said:
Because Basso's return to the sport has been less damaging than Vino's. Vino was unapologetic, still denies that he doped, and generally acted like a tool during his suspension. Basso just trained, posted his power files (including VO2max tests), and didn't make a media fuss about it.

Also, Basso averaged 395w on the final climb, which was 5.68w/kg for 41min. This is resonable, as many fresh domestic pros can average 5.5w/kg for an hour in a TT. For a world class athlete, who will probably win the Giro, to do 5.68w/kg at the end of this stage is believable...especially since just 4 years ago he probably would have been averaging well closer to 6.5w/kg.

From cyclingnews:
"Cycling has improved a lot. Things have really cleaned up. If either Ivan or Cadel win the Giro, we'll have the proof that you can win without doping. I totally trust them and I'm certain they wouldn't do anything to hurt me…."

Times for the climb and data calculated by Gazzetta dello Sport seemed to back up Sassi's hopes.

Basso climbed the 10.1km to the summit of Monte Zoncolan in a time of 40:45, one minute and 45 seconds slower than Gilberto Simoni in 2007. His average speed was 14.7km and he put out an average of 395 watts on the climb. The VAM (Velocità Ascensionale Media) or average climbing speed adjusted for the gradient, was calculated at 1777m/hour. Basso's strength to weight ratio was 5.68km/h [sic - w/kg]. In the past Sassi has said that any value over 6.2w/kg for a long effort on a major climb at the end of a stage race could be an indication of doping.​
+1

Generally speaking. Basso took his punishment like a man.
 

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DZfan14 said:
+1

Generally speaking. Basso took his punishment like a man.
Except for the part where he said he was only "thinking of" using his blood bags. And that his Giro win in 2006, where he had a 9+ minute lead over the second place Jose Enrique "la Bufala" Gurierrez, who not long after was also caught doping along with Tyler Hamilton ...

Plus, he confessed only after the the investigators started trying to convert the case into a criminal case in Italy, which would carry jail terms, and when the evidence became overwhelming

I think Basso took his punishment like a petulant but frightened boy.

For the sake of Aldo Sassi, I hope that he rode this Giro clean.
 

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iliveonnitro said:
Also, Basso averaged 395w on the final climb, which was 5.68w/kg for 41min. This is resonable, as many fresh domestic pros can average 5.5w/kg for an hour in a TT. For a world class athlete, who will probably win the Giro, to do 5.68w/kg at the end of this stage is believable...especially since just 4 years ago he probably would have been averaging well closer to 6.5w/kg.
Didn't Vino average less? Not really understanding this point.
 

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Everyone has their own opinion, some with a more arrogant sneer than others.
It's like talking politics. Not a whole lot of opinions will be changed no matter how much sense you make.
For me, as long as they served a ban, then I think they deserve to come back. I don't care if they admit it or not. The best thing they can do is race their hearts out and be clean doing it. Plus have a compact crank I guess.
How does it change the racing now if they admit it and apologize?
It doesn't effect me one way or another. I just want to see a good race.
 

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Just look at how these two were thought of before their bans. Many felt Vino was an ass, riding against his teammates in the Tour as one example, while Basso carried himself with class and dignity. This carried into their bans. Vino was very public, making a lot of noise about taking "his" team back, etc. Basso trained and then posted his numbers for all to see. Finally, despite whether you believe his reason Basso was never actually caught doping, Vino was.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Perico said:
Just look at how these two were thought of before their bans. Many felt Vino was an ass, riding against his teammates in the Tour as one example, while Basso carried himself with class and dignity. This carried into their bans. Vino was very public, making a lot of noise about taking "his" team back, etc. Basso trained and then posted his numbers for all to see. Finally, despite whether you believe his reason Basso was never actually caught doping, Vino was.
I am glad so many of you fully admit to yourself (and others) that you have two standards - one for "nice guys" and another one for "jerks". Basically, there is no moral absolutes when it comes to doping - and this confirms my beliefs that everything is relative - if you are a perceived as a nice guy who doped, it's Ok - you will be welcomed to peloton with open arms and a pat on the back, often even as a hero (Millar, Basso, Zabel, etc.). If you are a perceived as somewhat arrogant - whether fairly or not - you will be crucified. So people might as well get off your high horse about morals, absolutes and doping. Morals can be tweaked and modified, depending on whether we like the person or not.

Seems like there's also selective memory when it comes to actual facts.

The fact is - Basso never admitted that he doped. Only that he may have "intended" to dope. In fact, when first confronted with Puerto accusations, he denied any connections to Fuente and said he never doped. Only when there was sufficient evidence (such as a bag of blood with his dog's name, Brillo, and detailed surveillance of phone records, visitor surveillance and financial records of Dr. Fuente) Basso changed his tune to "I thought about doping and intended to do it but never did - you caught me *just* at the right time". Very similar to Schleck's "I paid a lot of money for information" type admission. Of course in context of his 2006 Giro won by 9+ minutes it may not be very believable to some of us.
If your level of naivette (if you think he is telling the truth) or you moral compass indicates that this is equivalent to telling the truth, well, that's fine too I guess (what do I care if you are intellectually dishonest with your own standards), but I just find the whole double-triple-quadruple standards quite hilarious.

There are several other factual inaccuracies here. For example, I am not sure Vino was perceived as a jerk before his conviction - in fact I remember many of my cycling friends tell me how he is their favorite rider, due to his "attack, attack!" riding style.

I am not sure when Vino chased down his own teammates - the way I remember it, the famous incident was when Kloden and Ullrich kept chasing down Vino's attacks (stage 14, TdF 2005). Maybe someone can help me with pinning down when Vino was chasing Ulle or Kloden.

As to using his relationship with Kazakh sponsors to get back to Astana - wouldn't you do the same? He started that team and has close national connections to it - why wouldn't he be expected to be a part of the team - this is his future career as DS or whatever. You don't think Armstrong with throw a $sh!tstorm if someone tried to threw him off Radioshack or Discovery/Postal team?

It's also interesting how Hamilton and Landis migrated from "nice guys" to "jerks". It seems like latest revelations by Landis definitely put him in "jerk" category. I know where Armstrong is going to end up, but I wonder what will happen to guys like Leipheimer, Hincapie or Zabriskie. Are they "nice dopers who are redeemable heros" or POS like Ricco or Rassmussen or Vino?

Of course, Landis has no proof, so it may be all irrelevant a year or two from now.
 

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Interesting how your posts includes false things (go through some cycling forums archives and see how many people like Vino), ignores things I actually said and says things I never said (Where did I say Vino chased anyone down?) The triple play of those who really have nothing.
 

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Perico said:
Interesting how your posts includes false things (go through some cycling forums archives and see how many people like Vino), ignores things I actually said and says things I never said (Where did I say Vino chased anyone down?) The triple play of those who really have nothing.
You say Basso was never caught doping. Talk about having nothing.
 

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Here's the thing...in a sport where doping is "normal" and has been for a century, a rational person cannot just use whether a rider doped or not (i.e. got caught or not) as their only criteria when deciding whether they like a rider or not. We still judge on attitude and style. I like Basso's and don't care much for Vino's. Such is life.
 

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Basso just grinded up the road steadily. Cadel couldn't keep up (whether due to unncessary fatigue with his gearing is another story). That made it believable since if you had someone like Riccardo Ricco in the same race, he would've been launching massive attacks flying up the road like there's no tomorrow. Just like the comical action we saw with DiLuca last year.
 

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orange_julius said:
Except for the part where he said he was only "thinking of" using his blood bags. And that his Giro win in 2006, where he had a 9+ minute lead over the second place Jose Enrique "la Bufala" Gurierrez, who not long after was also caught doping along with Tyler Hamilton ...

Plus, he confessed only after the the investigators started trying to convert the case into a criminal case in Italy, which would carry jail terms, and when the evidence became overwhelming

I think Basso took his punishment like a petulant but frightened boy.

For the sake of Aldo Sassi, I hope that he rode this Giro clean.
Hmmmmm. Basso eventually knew when to STFU. He didn't take it as well as some other guys did.

I don't think I have a double standard. Vino did his time, he's back now and winning. If you're allowed to race again then you are also allowed to win. Whether or not anyone likes him is sort of irrelevant.
 
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