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Who makes the best...

3K views 33 replies 18 participants last post by  colker1 
#1 ·
So who makes the best alloy/carbon bike?(carbon seatstays and/or chainstays etc.), Im trying to find a a frame for a new build up. Its gonna be kinda my all around race rig(crits and road races). Thoughts and opinons welcome.
 
#2 ·
Cyfac?

hambinator said:
So who makes the best alloy/carbon bike?(carbon seatstays and/or chainstays etc.), Im trying to find a a frame for a new build up. Its gonna be kinda my all around race rig(crits and road races). Thoughts and opinons welcome.
Cyfac? http://www.veloeuropa.com/

You give so little hint as to your criterion for what is "best".
 
#3 ·
Cannondale Six/13. I haven't ridden many combo bikes, but of the ones I've ridden it's the Cannondale Six/13 that's impressed me the most. All those years supplying the SAECO and Lampre teams has paid off. Poised. Balanced. Light. Fast.
 
#4 ·
Mapei Roida said:
Cannondale Six/13. I haven't ridden many combo bikes, but of the ones I've ridden it's the Cannondale Six/13 that's impressed me the most. All those years supplying the SAECO and Lampre teams has paid off. Poised. Balanced. Light. Fast.

Hands Down the 6/13. I have a record 04 version and it's awesome. Red Outline over the carbon top tube. Very suttle and completely beautiful. Fast comftorable stiff and light what else is there. Oh ya you can get a closeout 05 model frame for $1400. Ya it's different than the 06 model but hey it's more carbon.
 
#5 ·
Oxymoron?

hambinator said:
So who makes the best alloy/carbon bike?(carbon seatstays and/or chainstays etc.).
Some would contend that these kinds of bikes actually weigh more, offer an additional failure point at the material junction, and don't offer any performance benefits compared to frames of "all one material." Beyond that, there are a number of these frames available to satisfy the market demand. Chosing "the best" of anything is pretty difficult.
 
#6 ·
hambinator said:
So who makes the best alloy/carbon bike?(carbon seatstays and/or chainstays etc.), Im trying to find a a frame for a new build up. Its gonna be kinda my all around race rig(crits and road races). Thoughts and opinons welcome.
You can't go wrong with a KHS Flite 2000. Several folks here have them without complaint.
 
#9 ·
Hard to say who makes the best is. There are alot of great frame makers out there. I like Guerciotti, Rossin, Merckx, DeRosa, Casati. Who the best is?? Is going to be subjective. I was talking to a friend last night and he agreed that everybody out there had either a Trek or Cannondale (not that they are bad bikes) but if you are going to spend the money; get something that inspires passion. He just picked up a Pegoretti. I'm looking to get either another Guerciotti or Casati later this year.
 
#10 ·
Pretty bold statement....

Kerry Irons said:
....., and don't offer any performance benefits compared to frames of "all one material." .
What do you base this on?

Len
 
#13 · (Edited)
Well as long as your basing it on something real!

Kerry Irons said:
I base it on the inverse of the unsubstantiated claims that it does make a big difference. Simple as that :)
Kerry:

You give lot's of good advice, & people read what you write.

On this issue, you have nothing but an opinion based on no real experience....at least admit that it isn't based on anything experiential. I have an opinion, based on real riding experience.

I have ridden a mixed material bike and it is significantly different and (as I've said before) baased on my own comparisons in as equal a comparison as I think is possible), it does ride better in detectable ways.

You choose not to believe this seemingly because you don't want to (or you think I'm making it up). That's fine, but don't represent it for more than it is. You really don't know.



You can come ride it anytime you like.

Len
 
#14 ·
A little more thought....

Kerry:

-I told you that I have a Serotta Ottrott ST and a Serotta Legend Ti in almost the exact same geometry

-I told you that I bought the Ottrott for less than I paid for the Legend

-I told you that Kelly at Serotta, the designer, told me that the bikes were built for someone my weight and my normal riding and were built in all respects similarly.

-He believed that they were as close as two different Material bikes could be

-I told you that I have ridden these bikes back to back for a couple of months over the same roads on the same days comparing the rides

-Based on this I told you that I could feel the difference in the rides. The Ottrott was at once smoother and more comfotable while also being more responsive to pedaling input.

You choose to ignore this and chalk it up to bullshit.

I've been riding for 30 years and can feel the difference between a good bike & a better bike....you don't believe this.

Instead you chalk it up to unsubstantiated claims. I'm not sure why this is such a bug for you, but i have to call BS.

How about your unsubstantiated opinion? At least call it what it is.

Len



 
#15 ·
Orbea Lobular 100

Orbea makes and excellent Alu/Carbon mix. Nice nice ridding bike.

+1 on carbon stay comfort. IME my bikes with carbon stays do indeed offer a substantial increase in comfort. Only time will tell on durabilty (but I'm not worried :)

JR
 
#17 ·
Len J said:
Kerry:

-I told you that I have a Serotta Ottrott ST and a Serotta Legend Ti in almost the exact same geometry

-I told you that I bought the Ottrott for less than I paid for the Legend

-I told you that Kelly at Serotta, the designer, told me that the bikes were built for someone my weight and my normal riding and were built in all respects similarly.

-He believed that they were as close as two different Material bikes could be

-I told you that I have ridden these bikes back to back for a couple of months over the same roads on the same days comparing the rides

-Based on this I told you that I could feel the difference in the rides. The Ottrott was at once smoother and more comfotable while also being more responsive to pedaling input.

You choose to ignore this and chalk it up to bullshit.

I've been riding for 30 years and can feel the difference between a good bike & a better bike....you don't believe this.

Instead you chalk it up to unsubstantiated claims. I'm not sure why this is such a bug for you, but i have to call BS.

How about your unsubstantiated opinion? At least call it what it is.

Len



In a conversation with Dario Pegoretti a few years ago, the subject of carbon stays as well as sloping top tubes came up.

Dario, who was at the time involved with Dedacciai developing tubesets for them, stated that he did not see any benefit to the carbon stay design. His reasoning was that he believed that it was a short cut to tempering the ride of alloy frames. His arguement was that you could build a frame that was as light, as strong and as comfortable by taking a little trouble to design the stays correctly.

It's interesting that Litespeed have dropped carbon stays, as have colnago from their steel & Ti offerings. One cannot wonder how much of this is marketing hype on the vast majority of frames.

Your Serotta is another matter. On that level of cost of frame it is possible to push the envelope and gain a benefit. But most builders out there are not able to do that, as they have cost constraints.

As far as your response to Kerry's comments are concerned, read the whole of the posts. They are both reasonable responses, with the second being a bit of a joke I thought.

Some would contend that these kinds of bikes actually weigh more, offer an additional failure point at the material junction, and don't offer any performance benefits compared to frames of "all one material." Beyond that, there are a number of these frames available to satisfy the market demand. Chosing "the best" of anything is pretty difficult.

I base it on the inverse of the unsubstantiated claims that it does make a big difference. Simple as that
Mind you, I've yet to meet a Serotta owner who wasn't "wound a bit tight"!
 
#18 ·
Casati

I've owned and ridden bikes by Merckx, Pinarello, De Rosa, Concorde, Serotta, Argon 18, and Daccordi (not to mention Specialized, although I try not to admit that too often), and all I can say is that nothing comes close to a Casati. My Casati is a work of art and I genuinely get excited when I get to ride it. Whether a Casati is for you or not is not for me to determine. Suffice to say though that I enjoy mine.
 
#19 ·
ultimobici said:
In a conversation with Dario Pegoretti a few years ago, the subject of carbon stays as well as sloping top tubes came up.

Dario, who was at the time involved with Dedacciai developing tubesets for them, stated that he did not see any benefit to the carbon stay design. His reasoning was that he believed that it was a short cut to tempering the ride of alloy frames. His arguement was that you could build a frame that was as light, as strong and as comfortable by taking a little trouble to design the stays correctly.

It's interesting that Litespeed have dropped carbon stays, as have colnago from their steel & Ti offerings. One cannot wonder how much of this is marketing hype on the vast majority of frames.

!
thanks for that, pretty interesting... But i think the examples you give are a bit unfair. The OP is all about alloy(alu)/carbon mix, and not ti or steel mix. I would not buy either of the other two b/c it totally defeats the purpose of having that "longlife" material, either steel or ti.

Ok this is purely opinion w/ little experience b/w frames, but it would seem to me that if alu frames are "harsh" and carbon are "comfortable" (by and large by opinion or marketing), it makes sense to have a carbon rear triangle on an alu frame... i dont think seats stays alone would do a whole lot, but i really dont see how an all carbon frame would all of a sudden create an uber comfortable bike, with the rear carbon triangle contributing little or nothing at all. On the contrary, it would make more sense if the situation was reversed..

FWIW, i have an alloy frame with carbon seat stay only and "semi-carbon fork".. so i ain't saying this to make myself feel better.

my 2.
 
#20 ·
To answer the OP's question... i see a lot of pros here and abroad on decathlon frames... they use the dedacciai tubing w/ full carbon rear triangle... I think shopping for alloy frames is a bit easier since you only really have to look for a standardised tubeset, i'm on columbus myself. Apart from that, makers really only differ in welds, and well, most companies have a fanatstic frame guarantee and good customer support, so you're covered, you dont have to sift thru all the marketing hype behind carbon manufacturers for example, or for that matter, alloy frame makers that extoll the virtues of *their* tubeset ahead of all else.

If you stick to a big and popular brand with a history of customer support w/ columbus or dedacciai tubing and a good warantee you should be ok. (Might like to ask the LBS which company looks after their clients as this can vary from place to place, eg country, state, region etc..) Look out for some manufacturers that bundle their frames with decent full carbon forks as opposed to no name gear with alloy steerer and such though.

in the end i think these kind of frames will serve you very well for part time racing purposes, lets face it, all but the most expensive carbon frames really aren't that light and most are pretty spendy.

http://www.decathloncycle.com/
 
#21 ·
wankski said:
thanks for that, pretty interesting... But i think the examples you give are a bit unfair. The OP is all about alloy(alu)/carbon mix, and not ti or steel mix. I would not buy either of the other two b/c it totally defeats the purpose of having that "longlife" material, either steel or ti.

Ok this is purely opinion w/ little experience b/w frames, but it would seem to me that if alu frames are "harsh" and carbon are "comfortable" (by and large by opinion or marketing), it makes sense to have a carbon rear triangle on an alu frame... i dont think seats stays alone would do a whole lot, but i really dont see how an all carbon frame would all of a sudden create an uber comfortable bike, with the rear carbon triangle contributing little or nothing at all. On the contrary, it would make more sense if the situation was reversed..

FWIW, i have an alloy frame with carbon seat stay only and "semi-carbon fork".. so i ain't saying this to make myself feel better.

my 2.
Dario was talking about alloy frames, his point was that in a conventional frame the frame is welded at the dropout & at the seat tube (2 joints) whereas the carbon stayed frame has a bond at the seat tube, a bond at the bottom of the stay and then a 5mm bolt connecting it to the dropout. He could see a benefit on steel in weight reduction but alloy frames were more complicated by this method of constuction. He felt that they were a short cut but added weight in the process.

My opinion is that your average customer given the choice between all alloy & and alloy/carbon bike will plump for the latter even if there is no difference in feel and only £100 extra because it's natural to want the newest product even if it's no better in reality.

And if all the manufacturers are offering it in their ranges it has to be a real benefit doesn't it?
 
#22 ·
ultimobici said:
Dario was talking about alloy frames, his point was that in a conventional frame the frame is welded at the dropout & at the seat tube (2 joints) whereas the carbon stayed frame has a bond at the seat tube, a bond at the bottom of the stay and then a 5mm bolt connecting it to the dropout. He could see a benefit on steel in weight reduction but alloy frames were more complicated by this method of constuction. He felt that they were a short cut but added weight in the process.

My opinion is that your average customer given the choice between all alloy & and alloy/carbon bike will plump for the latter even if there is no difference in feel and only £100 extra because it's natural to want the newest product even if it's no better in reality.

And if all the manufacturers are offering it in their ranges it has to be a real benefit doesn't it?
ahh for sure, i got all that about the seat stays only thing, i admit that alone probably does nothing and is a marketing tool, but a full carbon rear triangle might be different. I've seen some that look like they've been lifted from the columbus full carbon frame tubing.. i think they called it "muscle"..If that does nothing, then i think that throws the whole CF frameset = comfort thing into question.
 
#23 ·
wankski said:
ahh for sure, i got all that about the seat stays only thing, i admit that alone probably does nothing and is a marketing tool, but a full carbon rear triangle might be different. I've seen some that look like they've been lifted from the columbus full carbon frame tubing.. i think they called it "muscle"..If that does nothing, then i think that throws the whole CF frameset = comfort thing into question.
I wonder if it is the rear triangle that should be targeted for comfort. Both Cannondale and Isaac have turned it round and used carbon for the main triangle with alloy in the stays.

I'm not convinced by the "stiff and light as possible" schhool of thought. I reckon that an overly stiff set up on regular roads is less efficient than a slightly flexier set up that doesn't batter you to death. Over 4 hours, the stiffer set up is going to tire you out more, and ultimately may be slower overall.
 
#24 ·
ultimobici said:
Dario, who was at the time involved with Dedacciai developing tubesets for them, stated that he did not see any benefit to the carbon stay design. His reasoning was that he believed that it was a short cut to tempering the ride of alloy frames. His arguement was that you could build a frame that was as light, as strong and as comfortable by taking a little trouble to design the stays correctly.
I can believe the claim that one can do almost the same with alu stays as one can with carbon stays, but this begs the question, which is easier to achieve the same feel / weight? And will the two solutions cost the same, and will the two solutions have the same longevity?

Strange as it sounds, having looked at a bunch of heavily raced, traveled, shipped, and sometimes crashed (ha) all-alu bikes, it is the rear alu stays that seem to get worn the worst. The better-quality carbon stays seem to be more robust.

So will senor Pegoretti make the same claims with cost and durability in consideration?
 
#25 ·
Cannondale six13 vs. CAAD7

Len J said:
-I told you that Kelly at Serotta, the designer, told me that the bikes were built for someone my weight and my normal riding and were built in all respects similarly.

-He believed that they were as close as two different Material bikes could be

-I told you that I have ridden these bikes back to back for a couple of months over the same roads on the same days comparing the rides

-Based on this I told you that I could feel the difference in the rides. The Ottrott was at once smoother and more comfotable while also being more responsive to pedaling input.
If I recall correctly, the Cannondale frames can be a way to compare apples to apples. I remember being told a few times that the six13 frames are really CAAD7 frames, fully welded, and then cut up and put back together with carbon tubing in between.
 
#26 ·
Maybe not "best" but darn good at a ridiculous price

I too have been looking into the alu/carbon hybrid frames. After reading up on them and spending way too much time googleing the daylights out of the subject, I came to the personal conclusion that a full carbon rear triangle was probably the way to go. I think you are much more likely to realize the "comfort" benefits if both the seat and chain stays are carbon. My goal was to get on the cheap some of the comfort I've experienced test riding a full carbon frame.

Well, now the story gets good. In my internet browsing I came across a really cool frame made by Kinesis. It uses thier Kinesium alloy tubing and a unique "hydroforming" process that allows them to shape the tubes for both aesthetic appeal and maximum stiffness without any weight penalty. The frames also have a full carbon rear end. The frames have an unmistakable and unique design that almost looks like frame lugs. Hmmm....I thought, that's a nice frame - the current Kinesis KIC model is selling in Europe for around $800 and I should be able to do better than that. Then, low and behold, a Taiwanese Ebay seller has a "no name" frame for sale in my size that has all the characteristic features of the Kinesis frame. In fact, it can be none other than the Kinesis KR-1 frame. Even the picture file he used was labeled KR1. The frame specs match up perfectly with printout from Kinesis" website. Very few people must have know what this frame was because there was virtually no bidding and I got it for $98 delivered. There are more of these frames on Ebay from the same seller.

Here's the ebay frame-
Ebay frame

Here's the frame on Kinesis' site -
http://www.kinesis.com.tw/products_frame_g9100-2004.htm

Check out the frame geometry. Being a short legged, long torsoed guy, I'm jazzed that this 51cm C-T frame has a 54cm top tube! This is rare indeed.
http://www.kinesis.com.tw/PDF/g9100-2004.pdf

An Italian site with the Kinesis frames-
http://www.gambacicli.it/kinesis.htm

Anybody care to get a cool frame for under $100? I'm putting a Reynolds Ouzo Pro fork on there (new on Ebay for $130) and I'm riding in comfort and style for under $250. Ahhh, the internet....it's a beautiful thing!
 
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