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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I feel horrible, what a let down, I was so looking forward to the Basso vs. Ullrich showdown. I'm sympathizing for them because they just happened to get caught - allegedly. What sucks is you know there are other riders heading down the ramp tomorrow morning ducking their head in shame because they know they are guilty of the same thing. I really don't blame the riders. I blame the f'ing Spanish for the timing of this "Operation." I heard there was a "Valv" included in the dossier; if the “Green Bullet” wins I'll ask G.W. Bush to invade Spain next.

Another reason to now dislike the Spanish is how freakin' lazy and stupid they are, doctors labeling blood packets "Jan" and “Son of Rudy,” OMG! Wake up from your paella carb-crash siesta and if you are going to be a doping doctor, do it right, sonsas.

I also blame the UCI for turning a blind eye to this issue for so many years. How could they not know how many of their riders were doping, come on, they just shot themselves in the foot with this one. They should just offer some sort of amnesty deal and have a real TDF with Ulle, Basso and Vino.

Otherwise you are going to have joker sponsors next year: “Hi, my name is Saul Raisin and I ride for team Bob and Edith’s Diner-Flowbee. We will be having a bake sale and hair cut fundraiser this Saturday, and for you senior citizens, I’ll be hosting a bingo tourney later at the Rotary Club, we’d like to raise enough funds so that all our seven riders can get a second pair of bibs. Oh and the team would rather not spend two weeks crossing the Atlantic crewing on a sailboat, we know it’s good cardio for the TDF, but getting our sea legs might ruin our cycle legs.”

I mean complete jokers (and liars who have not been caught yet) might get on the podium. The whole peloton should show up tomorrow and just raise their hands and admit if they have doped and drop a bomb on the TDF and UCI. Then, they should be allowed to ride as long as they test clean for the TDF. Just get the unspoken secret out, then clean up the sport for real and let’s watch Basso and Ullrich duke it out and enjoy the three weeks we have been waiting for.

All today did was just prove to me how much “better” of a rider Lance is, I mean he just “dominated” these horrible dopers Basso and Ullrich, he must be a complete genetic mutant, I guess everything is bigger in Texas, including their VO2 max, lactic acid threshold and lies.

AMF,

-L
 

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I find it hilarious that you are pissed. Blame the spaniards? For making a first step towards cleaning up the sport. The riders who haven't been caught may still be caught yet, I for one hope that more top names go down if they are in fact doping. Bring on a clean sport, it would be nice to see guys suffering more like me up climbs.

And as for the Lance comment, DROP IT. I refuse to have an opinion either way, nobody can prove it. The closest they have come to proving it was a bunch of inept "scientists" working with "his" urine. He may well have been on something (other than on his bike "busting ass for 6 hours a day"), but I need to see proof for that view to take hold. Likewise, how likely is it he dominated like he did while clean? VERY unlikely.
 

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Agreed.....

I'll side with you Luke....

There are very, very few of lifes real & genuine problems that keep me up at night but I think I will have trouble sleeping because of how angry I am about this whole mess.

I know that LukeVelo & I are likely in the minority, but I just wanna see them ALL fight it out. Doping allegations or not. I think it would rule if they offered an amnesty of some sort & suddenly it's kind of like the end of a hollywood movie as Jan, Ivan & the rest of the banned riders just appear with their bikes in kind of a "Norma Rae" moment (I can dream a little can't I?).

Makes sense to me that they would follow the regular procedures to make sure the riders are clean before, during & after the race and deal with these allegations after the race is over. That way the actual FANS would be the winners of the race.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Dude, I'm venting, I've been looking forward to this TDF for a long time. How is it that we (hacks) seem to know that all these guys are doping but the UCI does not? Then the Spanish serve up this hot platter right before the TDF. Come on, read between the lines. There is an agenda, what that is, I'm not sure, but if it's only for maximum exposure, I'm a bit skeptical. I just think it's really unfair that Basso and Ullrich go down (and we don't' get to watch them) while there are plenty of other riders who are doping get to ride.

I just think it would be great if everybody just fessed up, got the issue wide out in the open, started from scratch, the UCI actually made a real effort to stop doping and then we get to watch a level field, but the the joke is field is level now, 99% are doping.
 

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LukeVelo said:
Dude, I'm venting, I've been looking forward to this TDF for a long time. How is it that we (hacks) seem to know that all these guys are doping but the UCI does not? Then the Spanish serve up this hot platter right before the TDF. Come on, read between the lines. There is an agenda, what that is, I'm not sure, but if it's only for maximum exposure, I'm a bit skeptical. I just think it's really unfair that Basso and Ullrich go down (and we don't' get to watch them) while there are plenty of other riders who are doping get to ride.

I just think it would be great if everybody just fessed up, got the issue wide out in the open, started from scratch, the UCI actually made a real effort to stop doping and then we get to watch a level field, but the the joke is field is level now, 99% are doping.
Yeah... You know I was telling the GF (who's also crazy mad) earlier today that I'm not some conspiracy nut. I KNOW that Elvis is dead. I KNOW there wasn't a second gunman & I'm pretty sure that Neil Armstrong actually walked on the lunar landscape, but something about this whole thing just doesn't SMELL right if you know what I mean.

So I understand, man... I've been WAY looking forward to the TDF this year for a long time (I guess a year, right?) and came really close to making the trip over to watch it this time. I can't even imagine how much my anger would be intensified if I heard about this from the TV in my French hotel room.

I'll go ahead & say it and face the ridicule that is sure to follow: I honestly don't CARE if the riders have been doping! If Jan & Ivan being hopped up on EPO leads to a more entertaining TDF and some more dramatic mountain stages, sign me up. I'm all for it. Can you imagine the roster that would remain if they pulled every single rider out of every major race that had EVER doped? I think all the "holier than thou" nay-sayers might be singing a slightly different tune watching a bunch of no names struggle up the Alpe Du Huez while the best cyclists in the world watched the whole debacle from home.
 

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LukeVelo said:
Dude, I'm venting, I've been looking forward to this TDF for a long time. How is it that we (hacks) seem to know that all these guys are doping but the UCI does not? Then the Spanish serve up this hot platter right before the TDF. Come on, read between the lines. There is an agenda, what that is, I'm not sure, but if it's only for maximum exposure, I'm a bit skeptical. I just think it's really unfair that Basso and Ullrich go down (and we don't' get to watch them) while there are plenty of other riders who are doping get to ride.

I just think it would be great if everybody just fessed up, got the issue wide out in the open, started from scratch, the UCI actually made a real effort to stop doping and then we get to watch a level field, but the the joke is field is level now, 99% are doping.
Luke - I am pissed off too. I actually disagree about Armstrong - I am more like the other poster, don't have an opinion either way, don't particularly care and would need to see hard evidence to make any kind of judgement.

I am not sure what my problem really is. It's not with spaniards. Maybe it is with people who live for the scandal and think that somehow use of doping implies lack of virtue.

Perhaps this is what troubles me - lack of uniform rules. I don't care if everyone dopes or nobody dopes, as long as we apply the rules uniformly. When we make everyone give blood and analyze it - the rules are applied evenly to everyone. Same goes for out of test competition. Even if some people dope under the radar - they have an equal opportunity to do so.

The problem begins when certain riders are singled out, followed, someone searches through their garbage, they have raides against certain teams but not others, "random" tests that are clearly not random at all, etc. Spanish crackdown on Fuentes was a success, but the result wasn't uniform. The message may very well be - don't dope with Fuentes, and "if you are doping - better get out of Spain". Riders who may have doped with another doc or another country now get an advantage over those who used Fuentes. So now police and officials have the freedom to manipulate who gets "suspended" and who doesn't. It's not random, like drug testing where anyone who is doping has the same chance to get caught. It may be specifically designed to "catch" a certain unlikeable rider, while ignoring someone else. For example, one might follow Mancebo around and get him caught in the act eventually. But arbitrarily decide not to follow, say, Valverde, who happens to use another doc.

Maybe any suspension should be based strictly on results of drug tests. If you beat the system and use something undetectable - good for you (not really, probably - but at least you don't get suspended).

I also think it's people who dream of "clean sport" that have their head in the sand. As long as there are incentives to use something that may help you win races, people will find ways to do it. Arguments for "clean sport" are manyfold - "think about the children!", "we are concerned for athletes' health" and "unfair advantage". The first two are clearly bogus. The third one may have some merit, but I am leaning against it as well. Isn't it easier just to say "do whatever you want to prepare your body for this totally insane and very unhealthy event" ?
 

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LukeVelo said:
Dude, I'm venting, I've been looking forward to this TDF for a long time. How is it that we (hacks) seem to know that all these guys are doping but the UCI does not? Then the Spanish serve up this hot platter right before the TDF. Come on, read between the lines. There is an agenda, what that is, I'm not sure, but if it's only for maximum exposure, I'm a bit skeptical. I just think it's really unfair that Basso and Ullrich go down (and we don't' get to watch them) while there are plenty of other riders who are doping get to ride.

I just think it would be great if everybody just fessed up, got the issue wide out in the open, started from scratch, the UCI actually made a real effort to stop doping and then we get to watch a level field, but the the joke is field is level now, 99% are doping.
Oh, for sure most of the field is doping. The ones that didn't go down now may go down next, thats life. It sucks, but Basso and Ullrich along with the others got caught breaking the rules. Breaking the rules, even more not telling your team manager about it is and should be inexcusable.
 

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55x11 said:
I also think it's people who dream of "clean sport" that have their head in the sand. As long as there are incentives to use something that may help you win races, people will find ways to do it. Arguments for "clean sport" are manyfold - "think about the children!", "we are concerned for athletes' health" and "unfair advantage". The first two are clearly bogus. The third one may have some merit, but I am leaning against it as well. Isn't it easier just to say "do whatever you want to prepare your body for this totally insane and very unhealthy event" ?
The reason I dream of a clean sport, is that I see it a little differant than you. When I look at records, I like to see how well a human can perform on training and heart alone. Doping turns the sport into a medical competition, who has the best doctor at covering up their doping. I don't want to see that.
 

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55x11 said:
The problem begins when certain riders are singled out, followed, someone searches through their garbage, they have raides against certain teams but not others, "random" tests that are clearly not random at all, etc. Spanish crackdown on Fuentes was a success, but the result wasn't uniform.... Arguments for "clean sport" are manyfold - "think about the children!", "we are concerned for athletes' health" and "unfair advantage". The first two are clearly bogus. The third one may have some merit, but I am leaning against it as well. Isn't it easier just to say "do whatever you want to prepare your body for this totally insane and very unhealthy event" ?
Who was singled out? The Spanish police found an illegal medical operation, they investigated, and riders who used that doc were caught in the course of the investigation. I don't understand how anybody could say there was a PURPOSELY targeted group. The police likely HAD NO CLUE who was going to be implicated. They just did their job.

As far as the arguments that you cite, "think about the children!", "we are concerned for athletes' health" and "unfair advantage" - being "bogus" - I'm not sure where your line of reasoning is there either. Those are all valid reasons. I think you also missed the points that it ruins the image of the sport and that cleaning up the sport gets rid of the cheaters - and nobody likes a damned cheater.

I'm trying not to be argumentative with you, but in a number of your posts, you insinuate some sort of conspiracy, or at least some kind of coordinated effort against a certain person/group. I don't think there are any facts that would support this supposition.
 

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Who was singled out? CYCLISTS. 200 bags of blood, only 50 were cyclists and we have not heard one god damned peep about who all those others belong to. I am tired of cycling being the punching bag and getting all the bad publicity and losing sponsors while the rest all go happily on their doped way.
 
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terzo rene said:
Who was singled out? CYCLISTS. 200 bags of blood, only 50 were cyclists and we have not heard one god damned peep about who all those others belong to. I am tired of cycling being the punching bag and getting all the bad publicity and losing sponsors while the rest all go happily on their doped way.
Agreed! That pisses me off the most.
 

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ChilliConCarnage said:
Who was singled out? The Spanish police found an illegal medical operation, they investigated, and riders who used that doc were caught in the course of the investigation. I don't understand how anybody could say there was a PURPOSELY targeted group. The police likely HAD NO CLUE who was going to be implicated. They just did their job.

As far as the arguments that you cite, "think about the children!", "we are concerned for athletes' health" and "unfair advantage" - being "bogus" - I'm not sure where your line of reasoning is there either. Those are all valid reasons. I think you also missed the points that it ruins the image of the sport and that cleaning up the sport gets rid of the cheaters - and nobody likes a damned cheater.

I'm trying not to be argumentative with you, but in a number of your posts, you insinuate some sort of conspiracy, or at least some kind of coordinated effort against a certain person/group. I don't think there are any facts that would support this supposition.
If you read my posts carefully, you will see that I repeat that I don't think this is a conspiracy at all. But it opens a possibility for manipulation of this things by officials in the future. And certainly some riders (Vino and Kashechkin) have been unfairly kicked out of the Tour for something that was outside of their control.

Also, I think it's clear that Tour organizers pressured the names released before the Tour. Names of other athletes from other sports have not been released.

But that's not my point. My point is that the symmetry of "everyone pees in a cup" has been broken - some riders who happen to be doping in Spain may be suspended. But if you dope in Italy, you may participate.

Developing a test for a certain doping agent or procedure makes it impossible for anyone to use it. Sting operations are like spraying one part of the room for cockroaches only to find out they all ran to the other side of the room. I am not convinced they will help in the long run.

As to "doping damages the image of the sport" - well, actually it's the doping scandals that damage the image. Other sports are just as "dirty", if not much more, but they don't have scandals as huge as in cycling. You think pro-wrestlers, or american footballers, or sumo wrestlers or body builders don't dope? But somehow nobody thinks "they are all cheaters". But I heard this a lot from non-cycling fans - "those guys are all dopers".

The "think about children" argument is equally bogus. The idea that children somewhere will decide to blood dope or take EPO after watching TdF on OLN is preposterous. If anything, the blanket stings like Fuentes reinforces the idea that doping is the only way to get to the top.

The argument that it's not the training, but who can "cover up their doping best" is also somewhat misguided. First of all, if people stopped caring about doping, there would be no need to cover anything up. Second - the implication here is that people take drugs so they don't have to train hard, it's a shortcut. The reality is that people dope so they can train even harder.

Maybe I am playing devil's advocate here to some degree, but lately I feel like the expectations of "clean sport" are somewhat naive. Things that you cannot test for should be allowed. Otherwise we would have to rely on spotty raids here and there.
 

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I hear you!!

:mad2:

Conspiracy? Agenda? Certain individuals singled out?, I don't flippin' care!! I've been waiting 12 months for the Ullrich/Basso showdown, with Vino stirring it up from time to time and I just wanted to see them race.
 

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there shouldn´t be anarchy for the disadvantage of the athlete, being forced to sacrifice his health for the equipe, whioch has become worse with controlling, IMHO.

The controls should be to protect the athlete from criminal attend of the sponsors or the sport-group and the rules should then be apllied only.

No use in playing war all the time against nothing but humans doing their thing as good as possible, why just not relax and have everybodys way?
 

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doping...no doping...blah blah blah

If you want a clean sport...get rid of the money involved. Since we know that is NOT a reality, you are always going to have doping in pro sports...always. If you have a guy on a cycling team making minimum wage, riding on the same team with a guy making millions and all the fame and glory that go with being a top cyclist...what do you think that guy is going to do when approached with performance enhancing substances? I am not saying this is appropriate, but lets be realistic. What would you do? Naw...I don't want the fame, money or glory, just let me sit in the back of the pack. Yeah right.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Shab, you are right, there is nothing to see without Basso or Ullrich, this is TDF Lite. And if you think they are the only dopers, I have a bridge to sell you. And guess what, even though the chances are they did dope, NOTHING has been proven.
 
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