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'brifter' is f'ing stupid
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Not being familiar with an abbreviation isn't the same thing as not knowing what something is. And yes, I looked it up, and yes, I know what drag coefficient is. Just haven't seen it written as CdA before.
When you say stuff like this the hole that @asgelle references just gets deeper and deeper. It's never been written as anything other than CdA.
 

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When you say stuff like this the hole that @asgelle references just gets deeper and deeper. It's never been written as anything other than CdA.
I really think he's heading more toward this hole.
 

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You walk into the Litespeed head office showroom and tell them that aero bikes and carbon fiber are pointless...oh wait...

 

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All Ti bikes are not created equal. I have no idea what (Ti bike) you are comparing here in terms of bike type (racing, touring, MTB, etc..), design and engineering, manufacturing, etc...
Same with steel, aluminum and carbon.

Well, the first ti frames built with the same tubing diameters as steel of the day were known for having too much "modulus of elasticity" under maximum efforts. LeMond's first carbon bike was also allegedly "flippy" compared to the steel bikes, largely because it had aluminum lugs. Builders manipulated the tubing to compensate and dropped aluminum lugs. Now they're manipulating the weaves and layups, so carbon finally rides "better" than steel and as comfortably as ti.

So agree, ti's are outliers. Get one you like and it'll last forever, even better than steel! :D. But why smash it up in a race? Then again, they're also very crashworthy, aren't they?
 

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Not being familiar with an abbreviation isn't the same thing as not knowing what something is. And yes, I looked it up, and yes, I know what drag coefficient is. Just haven't seen it written as CdA before.
Keep exposing your ignorance and confirming why your baseless made up opinion is meaningless. It's hilarious.

CdA isn't drag coefficient. Derp
 

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As someone else here noted, the answer to Waspinator's question is purely economic. Titanium bikes are more expensive to produce that the Chinese mass marketed bikes that Trek, Specialized, Cannondale, etc. are selling. The money is in carbon fiber. Whether carbon fiber is a better material than titanium, aluminum, steel or bamboo is a secondary concern. The titanium bike industry is pretty much a small cottage industry compared to the big bike manufacturers.

It costs a lot of money to sponsor a World Tour team. It goes beyond providing 'free bikes'. Firms like Litespeed can't afford that level of marketing. Judging by the number of guys I see riding high end Specialized, Trek and Pinarello bikes around here, it must work. And there's no convincing these guys that some 'old hat' titanium bike is the thing to have. Gotta have those $2500 carbon clinchers as well.

Waspinator periodically visits us, makes an @ss of himself and disappears. He evidently bought a Litespeed T1sl bike for big bucks. I suspect he has buyer's remorse. Titanium was the gee whiz material 25 years ago. Now its seen by most people as a bit dated, like steel. He's also convinced that Litespeed has somehow evolved titanium fabrication to some mystical level where in reality, nothing has changed in decades. But good luck convincing him of that because he's swallowed Litespeed's marketing BS hook line and sinker. I've got five bikes and only one is carbon fiber -- a classic C40. I still have a Litespeed Ultimate made when Michael Lynskey owned the company. I like steel and titanium bikes, but I sure wouldn't make a troll of myself defending those choices with any argument other than its what I prefer.
 

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As someone else here noted, the answer to Waspinator's question is purely economic. Titanium bikes are more expensive to produce that the Chinese mass marketed bikes that Trek, Specialized, Cannondale, etc. are selling.
That's simply not true. A high end Litespeed Ti frame is the same price as a Madone frame. Yea yea... but carbon is produced in China bla bla. Well you can get a Ti frame from China for $330 too. There's not some great magical mystery to Ti.
And even if a Ti frame cost $1k more, if it were lighter and more aerodynamic than carbon, then the Pro's would be using it. But it's not so they don't. $1-$2k in the scheme of a $12,000 bike is irrelevant.
 

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That's simply not true. A high end Litespeed Ti frame is the same price as a Madone frame. Yea yea... but carbon is produced in China bla bla. Well you can get a Ti frame from China for $330 too. There's not some great magical mystery to Ti.
And even if a Ti frame cost $1k more, if it were lighter and more aerodynamic than carbon, then the Pro's would be using it. But it's not so they don't. $1-$2k in the scheme of a $12,000 bike is irrelevant.
No, the pros use what they get paid to use. And when you get down to it, the bikes they ride aren't the determining factor in the results they get. There's UCI weight limit, so that's not a factor anymore.

I think you're confusing cost of production with price. Does a Specialized S-Works cost a lot to manufacture? More than any other carbon bike? I can get on the Lynskey website and pay thousands of dollars for one of their frames, and then I can sometimes find them on ebay (sold by Lynskey) for $700. I recall the guy who ran Bikes Direct used to post here. He sources all his frames from China. He had a post about pricing once -- aluminum frames were dirt cheap, next came carbon and then steel and titanium. I'm talking hundreds -- not thousands different. But I bet margins like that matter. Why do you find FSA cranks on $3000 bikes? There's a reason the industry went to Chinese made carbon frames, and that reason is the economics favor that shift. Use your google skills to find a $250 carbon frame from China.

You are utterly completely full of s#it. You've been destroyed in this thread (and others) and you have nothing, not one shred of fact to support your uninformed made up opinion. Sound familiar?
 

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No, the pros use what they get paid to use. And when you get down to it, the bikes they ride aren't the determining factor in the results they get. There's UCI weight limit, so that's not a factor anymore.

I think you're confusing cost of production with price...

There's a reason the industry went to Chinese made carbon frames, and that reason is the economics favor that shift. Use your google skills to find a $250 carbon frame from China.
Nope. Like I said... you can also buy a Ti frame for $330. Neither carbon or Ti are that expensive to manufacture.


Titanium bikes are more expensive to produce that the Chinese mass marketed bikes
Like I've shown... not true. Ti isn't magical fairy dust.

Sure it's purely economical. Bicycle manufactures want to sell bikes. Pro teams winning races sells bikes. If they could sell more bikes by having teams win on Ti, they would make them. But they don't so they won't.
 

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Waspinator periodically visits us, makes an @ss of himself and disappears. He evidently bought a Litespeed T1sl bike for big bucks. I suspect he has buyer's remorse.
I'm going to say I disagree that it was buyer's remorse. More likely, it's the teenager mentality of loving his new purchase and needing to prove to the world that it's better than any other. Sort of like when a teenager buy's his first car which happens to be a Chevy. So now he must prove to the world that not only are Chevys awesome, but all Fords suck.

I have 7 bikes and my favorite one is my Jamis Renegade 631 Reynolds steel bike. But I'm not arguing that it should be the standard for the TdF. :eek:ut:
 

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That's simply not true. A high end Litespeed Ti frame is the same price as a Madone frame. Yea yea... but carbon is produced in China bla bla. Well you can get a Ti frame from China for $330 too. There's not some great magical mystery to Ti.
And even if a Ti frame cost $1k more, if it were lighter and more aerodynamic than carbon, then the Pro's would be using it. But it's not so they don't. $1-$2k in the scheme of a $12,000 bike is irrelevant.
Where you gonna find an aero Ti frame that's as slippery as an aero crabon frame? And will it be possible to get it as cheaply as an aero carbon frame can be made. Just a guess on my part, but I don't think that building a slippery Ti frame can be done as cheaply as a round, oval or even helix frame can be made.

And even if it could be done cheaply, why would the big manufacturers bother making the investment now having already decided to butter their bread with crabon. Maybe if the sales of crabon starts to slump there would be a move to "Ti, the next big advancement", but I doubt that seeing as Specialized has plopped Sagan on an aluminum frame at the Race Down Under..
 

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Nope. Like I said... you can also buy a Ti frame for $330. Neither carbon or Ti are that expensive to manufacture.

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Do you have a link to these $300 Ti frames? I wanna get me one (I tried Google but that got me Ti eyeglass frames for $300)
 

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Where you gonna find an aero Ti frame that's as slippery as an aero crabon frame? And will it be possible to get it as cheaply as an aero carbon frame can be made.
You're not gonna find one. Which is why pro's aren't riding Ti frames. They can't be made aero.

Do you have a link to these $300 Ti frames? I wanna get me one (I tried Google but that got me Ti eyeglass frames for $300)
Ti frame from China for $330
I don't think you wanna get yourself one.
 

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The welds look a bit rough and it's no lightweight at 1600g for a super small. Maybe I will stick with my Lynskey
It’s also only available in 46 cm size frame. So unless you’re 4’10” it’s probably not for you. Convincing argument for the cost of titanium versus carbon fiber fabrication.
 

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Discussion Starter #238
As someone else here noted, the answer to Waspinator's question is purely economic. Titanium bikes are more expensive to produce that the Chinese mass marketed bikes that Trek, Specialized, Cannondale, etc. are selling. The money is in carbon fiber. Whether carbon fiber is a better material than titanium, aluminum, steel or bamboo is a secondary concern. The titanium bike industry is pretty much a small cottage industry compared to the big bike manufacturers.

It costs a lot of money to sponsor a World Tour team. It goes beyond providing 'free bikes'. Firms like Litespeed can't afford that level of marketing. Judging by the number of guys I see riding high end Specialized, Trek and Pinarello bikes around here, it must work. And there's no convincing these guys that some 'old hat' titanium bike is the thing to have. Gotta have those $2500 carbon clinchers as well.

Waspinator periodically visits us, makes an @ss of himself and disappears. He evidently bought a Litespeed T1sl bike for big bucks. I suspect he has buyer's remorse. Titanium was the gee whiz material 25 years ago. Now its seen by most people as a bit dated, like steel. He's also convinced that Litespeed has somehow evolved titanium fabrication to some mystical level where in reality, nothing has changed in decades. But good luck convincing him of that because he's swallowed Litespeed's marketing BS hook line and sinker. I've got five bikes and only one is carbon fiber -- a classic C40. I still have a Litespeed Ultimate made when Michael Lynskey owned the company. I like steel and titanium bikes, but I sure wouldn't make a troll of myself defending those choices with any argument other than its what I prefer.
Buyer's remorse? Don't make me laugh. I am extremely happy with my purchase, and I'm contemplating purchasing a second T1SL Disc frame. My current one was built up for sturdiness. I'd like to build a second one as light as possible. No buyer's remorse here whatsoever.

Your exaggeration of my opinion of Litespeed notwithstanding, I still believe that they are better at it than your average mom-and-pop Ti manufacturer. They have a lot of experience doing it, and being a bigger operation than most, they have the resources to do more with the material.
 

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Discussion Starter #239
That's simply not true. A high end Litespeed Ti frame is the same price as a Madone frame. Yea yea... but carbon is produced in China bla bla. Well you can get a Ti frame from China for $330 too. There's not some great magical mystery to Ti.
And even if a Ti frame cost $1k more, if it were lighter and more aerodynamic than carbon, then the Pro's would be using it. But it's not so they don't. $1-$2k in the scheme of a $12,000 bike is irrelevant.
What he's saying is "simply not true", but I'm "full of s***".

Maybe you need to learn to not take things so personally.
 

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What he's saying is "simply not true", but I'm "full of s***".

Maybe you need to learn to not take things so personally.
pmf doesn't have a history of posting rubbish flat earther type nonsense like "aero being BS" or "thru axles are stupid". Enjoy your ti bike, nothing wrong with that, just don't make up s%$^ when reality and all evidence says the exact opposite.
 
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