[den bakker]

Wow...this is roughly the equivalent of bring a wooden spoon to a gunfight. You should quit while you're not light years behind. Just give up on trying to convince anyone of anything at all in this thread. Read what has been posted...absorb it...and just stop.

some people when offered a rope really just want there to be a shovel at the end so they can dig faster.

 

[Waspinator]

It doesn’t help to use big words when you don’t know what they mean.

You seriously don't think bicycle companies aren't taking advantage of composites? :shocked:



Read it again.
IT'S ALL ABOUT THE WEIGHT
COMPOSITE MATERIALS ARE THE ANSWER

It doesn't say anything about costs because that wasn't the objective. Contrary to what you made up.
"In response to the preferences of airlines around the world, Boeing Commercial Airplanes' new airplane is the Boeing 787 Dreamliner, a super-efficient airplane. The original customer objectives set for the 787 program in 2002 were for a more-efficient airplane that had the seating capacity of a 767 and the range and speed of a 777 or 747."

Yes it's about costs. Fuel costs. Achieved by the superior strength to weight ratio of composts.

Boeing makes money by selling airplanes for more than it costs to make them.

You think cost wasn’t a consideration for Boeing? Seriously?

 

[craiger_ny]

Yeah. Sure there are.

I mean, why not? It’s every newly-graduated engineering PhD’s dream to go design bicycles. What could be more enticing than that?

A person may not entirely know where their career will take them. We work with a supplier of ours that has a number of folks on hand with PhDs. They make gears, that's all they make. I doubt those folks were chomping at the bit to get that degree so they could enter the exciting world of designing and manufacturing gears but rather it was likely something that they incrementally worked their way into as both their interests and opportunities grew for them.

There was never a day that I pictured myself a designer of custom gages and programmer of various types of measuring equipment but it's where I have come to find myself.

 

[Lombard]

some people when offered a rope really just want there to be a shovel at the end so they can dig faster.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to den bakker again.

 

[tlg]

Boeing makes money by selling airplanes for more than it costs to make them.

You think cost wasn’t a consideration for Boeing? Seriously?

It would really help the conversation if you actually read.

lmao. No that is NOT why they chose composites. Give it up! Strength to Weight is a real thing.

The Boeing Dreamliner airframe is nearly half carbon fiber reinforced plastic and other composites. Reducing weight by 20 percent compared to more conventional designs.

Cost of the plane is a small factor. Cost of fuel is significantly larger factor.

This is really basic stuff.

The original customer objectives set for the 787 program in 2002 were for a more-efficient airplane Not the cost of the plane. Airlines will pay whatever Boeing charged for the plane for significant fuel savings.


So you still believe the strength/stiffness vs weight argument has been scientifically proven? Seriously?

 

[Waspinator]

It doesn’t help to use big words when you don’t know what they mean.

It would really help the conversation if you actually read.

This is really basic stuff.

The original customer objectives set for the 787 program in 2002 were for a more-efficient airplane Not the cost of the plane. Airlines will pay whatever Boeing charged for the plane for significant fuel savings.


So you still believe the strength/stiffness vs weight argument has been scientifically proven? Seriously?

Fuel economy is only relevant to Boeing inasmuch as it is a selling feature for the plane.

But for Boeing itself, they needed to accomplish this in a way that was as inexpensive as possible. It is entirely possible that CF was superior in this way alone.

 

[Marc]

It would really help the conversation if you actually read.

This is really basic stuff.

The original customer objectives set for the 787 program in 2002 were for a more-efficient airplane Not the cost of the plane. Airlines will pay whatever Boeing charged for the plane for significant fuel savings.


So you still believe the strength/stiffness vs weight argument has been scientifically proven? Seriously?

I mean we all know how the market is saturated with titanium sub-1kg bike frames. I mean geeze, you hear about sub-800gram titanium frames all the time for road use.

 

[tlg]

Fuel economy is only relevant to Boeing inasmuch as it is a selling feature for the plane.

Well duh. That's why that was their original objective. To sell planes.


So you still believe the strength/stiffness vs weight argument has been scientifically proven? Seriously?

 

[tlg]

I mean we all know how the market is saturated with titanium sub-1kg bike frames. I mean geeze, you hear about sub-800gram titanium frames all the time for road use.

lol I was just looking into that. I'm not up to speed on weights of Ti frames so was doing some research. Lightest I could find was Litespeed T1sl @ 1050g.
An Émonda SLR 9 frame weighs 640 grams.

Surely it has nothing to do with strength to weight ratio.

 

[Waspinator]

It doesn’t help to use big words when you don’t know what they mean.

lol I was just looking into that. I'm not up to speed on weights of Ti frames so was doing some research. Lightest I could find was Litespeed T1sl @ 1050g.
An Émonda SLR 9 frame weighs 640 grams.

Surely it has nothing to do with strength to weight ratio.

If you’ll read my original post, you’ll note that I mentioned the UCI weight limit, and that a titanium bike can easily be built to weigh less than this limit.

Moreover, you have to realize that there hasn’t been a lot of development with regard to making metal frames, because all the bike industry really knows how to do with metals is make it into straight tubes, cut it, weld it, and polish it, and little else.

 

[tlg]

If you’ll read my original post, you’ll note that I mentioned the UCI weight limit, and that a titanium bike can easily be built to weigh less than this limit.

So what? The UCI weight limit has nothing to do with strength to weight ratio.

Moreover, you have to realize that there hasn’t been a lot of development with regard to making metal frames, because all the bike industry really knows how to do with metals is make it into straight tubes, cut it, weld it, and polish it, and little else.

lol You haven't heard of hydroforming? Never seen a CAAD12?


So you still believe the strength/stiffness vs weight argument hasn't been scientifically proven? Seriously?

 

[den bakker]

I

Moreover, you have to realize that there hasn’t been a lot of development with regard to making metal frames, because all the bike industry really knows how to do with metals is make it into straight tubes, cut it, weld it, and polish it, and little else.

 

[cxwrench]

If you’ll read my original post, you’ll note that I mentioned the UCI weight limit, and that a titanium bike can easily be built to weigh less than this limit.

Moreover, you have to realize that there hasn’t been a lot of development with regard to making metal frames, because all the bike industry really knows how to do with metals is make it into straight tubes, cut it, weld it, and polish it, and little else.

Looked at your own bike lately? Not exactly straight, round tubes.

 

[Marc]

If you’ll read my original post, you’ll note that I mentioned the UCI weight limit, and that a titanium bike can easily be built to weigh less than this limit.

Moreover, you have to realize that there hasn’t been a lot of development with regard to making metal frames, because all the bike industry really knows how to do with metals is make it into straight tubes, cut it, weld it, and polish it, and little else.

Just stop posting about this already...you're only proving how little you know by arguing with those who know more than you.

 

[taodemon]

So are you saying that all three of these bikes have exactly the same brand and make of tires, the same size tires inflated to exactly the same pressure?

Tires will make the biggest difference in ride quality. Everything else is comparatively minuscule.

I've been using the same HED jet 5 wheels with conti gp4000ii pretty much the whole time for the past 5 years and I always inflate my tires to the same pressure. Occasionally I would pick up an Sworks turbo from the bike store when I ran out of contis before my next online order arrived. The turbos never lasted me long so I would be back on conti's in a month or two.

14k miles on the venge, 6k on the sl5, 2.3k so far on the sl6 from july of 2018. I've just moved all the components/wheels to each new frame. The biggest difference in ride quality being the SL5 to SL6. The original venge had pretty much identical geometry to the sl5 and the sl6 is fairly close to the sl5 as well in this regard.

 

[velodog]

If you’ll read my original post, you’ll note that I mentioned the UCI weight limit, and that a titanium bike can easily be built to weigh less than this limit.

Moreover, you have to realize that there hasn’t been a lot of development with regard to making metal frames, because all the bike industry really knows how to do with metals is make it into straight tubes, cut it, weld it, and polish it, and little else.

Did you just wake from a 30yr nap?

 

[cxwrench]

Just stop posting about this already...you're only proving how little you know by arguing with those who know more than you.

No, it's all of us that are wrong. Especially those of us that have been in the industry for over 20 years and worked for teams for 15 years. We know nothing about why certain materials are used or not, and have no clue about the level of education in the industry. It might be fun if Waspy let us know what he does for a living and we can all second guess the **** outta him.

 

[Lombard]

No, it's all of us that are wrong. Especially those of us that have been in the industry for over 20 years and worked for teams for 15 years. We know nothing about why certain materials are used or not, and have no clue about the level of education in the industry. It might be fun if Waspy let us know what he does for a living and we can all second guess the **** outta him.

He did mention that his dad had a PhD, but never divulged his own education or profession. Hmmmm.

 

[tlg]

It might be fun if Waspy let us know what he does for a living and we can all second guess the **** outta him.

I'm sure he's scouring the interwebs looking for something to come back and "school us" that the strength/stiffness vs weight argument hasn't been scientifically proven.

 

[cxwrench]

I'm sure he's scouring the interwebs looking for something to come back and "school us" that the strength/stiffness vs weight argument hasn't been scientifically proven.

I'm sure you're right!