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Cadel wouldn't have had to respond to any attacks if Horner was the guy putting Andy Schleck to the test...

That being said, Sastre still would have attacked at the base of Alp D'huez and probably still would have taken the yellow... Horner is good, but he alone couldn't have made the difference when the entire CSC team was on a mission.
 

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Horner would have helped

but Cadel needs a full squad
CSC had full squads at the base of most climbs
Cadel was usually isolated
on AdH CSC had 3 on the final climb. 1 to break and 2 to police
 

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After 20 years Im still stumped on the whole "Team" thing in the ALPS/Pyranees. So Andy Scleck or Jens, who are light years out of yellow, go up the road, and Phil and Paul are going on and on about how they are "attacking Cadel", and Cadel has no help. WTF does Cadel care about Andy Scleck attacking? Cadel only has to respond to attacks from contenders, and incidentally thats true for everyone in that yellow jersey group. So who cares if CSC has 5 people riding in the front, only 2 of them matter. You still have to turn over the pedals regardless of wheather you have no teammates or 5? I understand you're screwed if you get a flat but that didnt happen. I think the whole Team concept gets way overblown. They cant physically help you and there were plenty of wheels to draft/ suck. The great climbers just ride right away from everyone historically, even without teammates' help sometimes. If cadel had 6 teammates with him what would they have done to slow Sastre down, put a frame pump in his spokes?
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I think it would have been a mental boost. Enough to make a diffrernce, i don't know.
Cadel knew he had to be on the ball for every attack when they came. He still would with a teamate but I'm sure it would lighten the stress load. Little mental things like that can mean a lot when you're trying to squeese the last bit of steam out of yourself.

Also, someone drifting back for bottles is a nice help.

I do think it's mostly mental however one must not discount that value. Take how riders perform in the yellow. They aren't magically better riders yet they all ride better.
 

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eugkim said:
Silence-Lotto would have needed at least one other rider (in addition to Horner) to offset the CSC train. As stated, Horner didn't help Cadel get over the hump last year either.
There is an important difference between Lotto in '07 vs '08. In '07 they were staffed to support Robbie in the sprints. Evans had Horner and that's all.

In '08 Lotto was staffed to ride for Cadel, and Robbie had to ride for himself. That's right, we saw the best GC team Lotto could muster.

So, would Horner have made enough difference to move Cadel up a step? Maybe. Judging by his performances over the last couple of years, he would for sure have been on the front on each big climb, except for the big mountain finishes and last climb of multi-climb days. He's not a pure mountain domestique, a la F. Schleck, but he gives everything he can to deliver his GC guy.

JR
 

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For the record, Horner was seldom with Evans on a day's final climb last year. Evans needed someone to set the pace on Alpe D'huez and not expose him to other GC attacks. Popo was supposed to do this, but has clearly lost a step - for reasons that should be pretty obvious to those keeping track of former Discovery riders...
 

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bigmig19 said:
After 20 years Im still stumped on the whole "Team" thing in the ALPS/Pyranees. So Andy Scleck or Jens, who are light years out of yellow, go up the road, and Phil and Paul are going on and on about how they are "attacking Cadel", and Cadel has no help. WTF does Cadel care about Andy Scleck attacking? Cadel only has to respond to attacks from contenders, and incidentally thats true for everyone in that yellow jersey group. So who cares if CSC has 5 people riding in the front, only 2 of them matter. You still have to turn over the pedals regardless of wheather you have no teammates or 5? I understand you're screwed if you get a flat but that didnt happen. I think the whole Team concept gets way overblown. They cant physically help you and there were plenty of wheels to draft/ suck. The great climbers just ride right away from everyone historically, even without teammates' help sometimes. If cadel had 6 teammates with him what would they have done to slow Sastre down, put a frame pump in his spokes?
+10 I agree ..waayy too much emphasis placed into the "team effort" for this particular stage win by Sastre, and stage loss by a minute and a half that lead to Cadel's eventual demise - Sastre took the stage by attacking from the base without a lead out man, and Cadel just couldn't follow suit. On the TT Sastre bested himself, but Cadel fell apart.
 

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Horner isn't the guy you need to pull back a pure climber like Sastre. I very much doubt it would have mattered. Cadel lost it in the final TT and that's all there is to it (much like Ricco bashing his team after losing minutes in the TT stages at the Giro). I think Phil and Paul are onto something when they say the pressure got to him.

I'd just add that it sucks to be Popo or Aerts or Cioni. Cadel's whining about getting no help. Robbie (much as I love him) is whining about getting no help. No stage wins (correct me if I'm wrong). Kind of takes the fun out of 2nd place overall.
 

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Agree on the team thing, but I'm a newbie really. If evans had a teammate that was fresh enough the teammate could have paced Evans up behind Sastre. I think the pacing would have taken the mental stress (which translates to physical stress) of chasing down an attack.
 

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Its a shame...Silence Lotto was such a letdown...I cant believe they would go into the TDF with such a weak team knowing that cadel was a contender. Grant it CSC as amazing ..loto should have come with a little more...such a shame but I guess it goes t show how important teams are
 

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Evans doesn't have the quickness to attack. he just sits in the pack and tries not to lose time. it was frustrating watching him in the Tour. he tried not to lose the race, rather than trying to win it, like Sastre did on L'Alpe d'Huez. Cadel doesn't seem to have the killer instinct.

I like Horner and he would have helped the team effort, but wouldn't have been enough to take the lead out of Cadel's legs.
 

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bigmig19 said:
After 20 years Im still stumped on the whole "Team" thing in the ALPS/Pyranees. So Andy Scleck or Jens, who are light years out of yellow, go up the road, and Phil and Paul are going on and on about how they are "attacking Cadel", and Cadel has no help. WTF does Cadel care about Andy Scleck attacking? Cadel only has to respond to attacks from contenders, and incidentally thats true for everyone in that yellow jersey group. So who cares if CSC has 5 people riding in the front, only 2 of them matter. You still have to turn over the pedals regardless of wheather you have no teammates or 5? I understand you're screwed if you get a flat but that didnt happen. I think the whole Team concept gets way overblown. They cant physically help you and there were plenty of wheels to draft/ suck. The great climbers just ride right away from everyone historically, even without teammates' help sometimes. If cadel had 6 teammates with him what would they have done to slow Sastre down, put a frame pump in his spokes?
Every day Evans was having to watch 1 Sastre and 2 Schlecks in 1 team. He had no one to cover their attacks. Sastre had the Schlecks to help him as well as Voight, O'Grady and Cancellara. Armstrong would have had a much harder task if he hadn't had his team's help. Indurain was the same - he had a team built to take the pressure off him. Evans' team lacked strength in depth and I suspect was not that motivated to bury themselves for him. CSC have an air of "All for One and One for All" about them.
 

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mangotreat0808 said:
+10 I agree ..waayy too much emphasis placed into the "team effort" for this particular stage win by Sastre, and stage loss by a minute and a half that lead to Cadel's eventual demise - Sastre took the stage by attacking from the base without a lead out man, and Cadel just couldn't follow suit. On the TT Sastre bested himself, but Cadel fell apart.
Well you guys are all WRONG! :)

The reason Andy had to be watched was because they couldn't allow him to bridge to Sastre. If they (Menchov, Evans, VdV) had let Andy go, then it would have been 2 against none in the race to the top. Andy could have went all out to pace Sastre, then when he blew up, Sastre could have continued on with slightly better legs than he ended up having.
 

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Basically, Evans and Sastre each had one shot. Sastre basically sat on wheels for 19 days, made one attack in the whole race and hoped to make up enough time to hold Evans off in the TT.
Evans sat on wheels for 19 days, and hoped to hold Sastre to a small enough gap to bridge it in the TT.

Sastre got it right.
 

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wallaby said:
Sastre got it right.
That is RIGHT. Carlos rode the TT of his life. Cadel, when he had to, didn't. Surely, before the start of the TT, I'll bet Cadel was thinking he had it. Didn't deliver the goods. Sastre did. End of story.(And besides, I was glad to see Sastre finally win-he deserved it.)
 

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Einstruzende said:
Well you guys are all WRONG! :)

The reason Andy had to be watched was because they couldn't allow him to bridge to Sastre. If they (Menchov, Evans, VdV) had let Andy go, then it would have been 2 against none in the race to the top. Andy could have went all out to pace Sastre, then when he blew up, Sastre could have continued on with slightly better legs than he ended up having.
But my question is why mark Andy when you have to chase down Sastre - Cadel succumbed to this distraction. The drama that unfolded at the Alps (IMHO) was Sastre's individual climbing prowess and Evans being unable to chase down Sastre to a doable gap. It was really a chess game between the two and Sastre after a brilliant move called "check mate" mate. Peace out:)
 
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