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STRONGEST SPOKE PATTERN? and number of spokes?

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thedips

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
ok it was just my assumption that more the pokes the stronger..... a buddy of mine informed me that was not the case.... and that a 32 spoke wheel laced up in a certain pattern is stronger than a 36? or even a 40?

can someone please inform me on wheel building strength...
also which spokes shape brand etc..will make it strong as well.. and im sure brass nipples

im going for the strongest wheel i can build for a track rear... thanks..:idea:
 
#2 ·
32 3x(each spoke crosses 3 others) would probably beat a 36er spoked radially or 2x, all other things being equal. This is prolly a dumb example, as most any 36 spoker I've seen is done 3x. If you're building a track rear wheel, it's already gonna be stronger than a comparable 9 or 10 speed rear, as you don't have to dish the wheel at all to accomodate a gear cluster. 32 spokes, 3x, no dish, is plenty strong enough, assuming the wheelbuilder knows what they're doing. DT spokes, butted say 14/15 are plenty strong. I don't know about track wheels; maybe they've got special needs.
 
Discussion starter · #3 ·
well ok i take that back.. less track needs.. more urban abuse... commuter.. bumps.. terrain.. tricks.. anything i can throw at it.. is the need for strength..


thanks!
 
Discussion starter · #5 ·
rims still looking around... no i wasnt really planning on using deep vs.. but they do have that "look" to them...

i will also take suggestions on rims and hubs while im at it... please keep price into consideration... as much as i would like a dream wheel .. a reasonably priced super strong wheel is what im going for!
 
#6 ·
The differences between 32-40 spoke patterns is small compared to the differences in build quality and components. I will assume for a moment that you have the quality of the build down.

36 spokes
beefy rim (someone mentioned the DeepV)
High flange track style hubs
Quality spokes and nipples (DT, Sapim, Wheelsmith to name a few)
4 cross pattern

That should do the trick without knowing anymore of the particulars. 36/4 cross has some overlap with smaller flanges, so go 3 cross if that's the case.

-Eric
 
#10 ·
thedips said:
ok it was just my assumption that more the pokes the stronger..... a buddy of mine informed me that was not the case.... and that a 32 spoke wheel laced up in a certain pattern is stronger than a 36? or even a 40?
Click to expand...
Your buddy is misinformed (or just making things up). This subject has been studied and tested by Dr. Henri Gavin, a professor at Duke University, who found that spoke pattern (number of crossings) makes no difference in wheel durability (fatigue resistance): Bicycle Wheel Spoke Patterns and Spoke Fatigue

thedips said:
can someone please inform me on wheel building strength...
also which spokes shape brand etc..will make it strong as well.. and im sure brass nipples
Click to expand...
The largest factor in wheel strength, stiffness, durability is the rim. For stiffness, hub flanging spacing is the next most important variable. Spokes have a lesser affect on both strength and stiffness, although they can affect durability.

In general:

For greater stiffness, use more and thicker spokes.

For greater durability, use more and more highly butted spokes.

Aluminum nipples are more than strong enough for just about any wheel, but they are more prone to corrosion, and so brass nipples give greater durability.

thedips said:
im going for the strongest wheel i can build for a track rear... thanks..:idea:
Click to expand...
Then use 36 spokes with a deep rim. A 36 spoke wheel with a Velocity Deep-V rim is sturdy enough even for use on tandems.
 
#13 ·
Track wheels are zero dish which makes for a much stronger wheel, they don't have to carry anything more than their rider, and velodromes don't; have potholes or bumps.

I have two rear wheels for my Trek 750 touring bike... one a 36 by 3 spoke pattern on a Sansin hub and Ambrosio wheel (light and fast) while the other is a 40 by 4 on a Ukai wheel and Suzue sealed hub (my bombproof touring wheel).

And these are nukeproof...

My 1955 Lenton runs a flip flop rear hub (zero dish) and and the wheels are vintage Dunlop EA1's (lightweight steel) which are 26 inch and use a 40 by 3 spoke pattern.
 
#14 ·
Strongest spoke pattern is probably a Tri specific 3 spoke carbon fibre tubular wheel.
With a conventional wheel I would assume the greater number of spokes the stronger the wheel is. That way stress is distributed over more spokes.
 
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#15 ·
One would think that more spokes would be stronger,,, but The moe spokes you have, the more holes you have to put in the rim... Swiss-cheez any hunk of metal, and what happens? it gets weaker, and weaker....
Yes, to a point more is stonger, but eventualy you reach a point of diminishing returns...
 
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#16 ·
Visitor302 said:
One would think that more spokes would be stronger,,, but The moe spokes you have, the more holes you have to put in the rim... Swiss-cheez any hunk of metal, and what happens? it gets weaker, and weaker....
Yes, to a point more is stonger, but eventualy you reach a point of diminishing returns...
Click to expand...
Right, but the majority of wheel sets out there range between 12 spokes (Usually laced radially) to 36 spokes (laced 3 cross or more).

I would hazard a guess that a 36 spoke wheel would be more durable, could take more impact energy, Have less spoke windup under a sprint, have less lateral defection going around corners... than say a 12 spoke radially laced wheel.
 
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#17 ·
Sixty Fiver said:
Track wheels are zero dish which makes for a much stronger wheel, they don't have to carry anything more than their rider, and velodromes don't; have potholes or bumps.

I have two rear wheels for my Trek 750 touring bike... one a 36 by 3 spoke pattern on a Sansin hub and Ambrosio wheel (light and fast) while the other is a 40 by 4 on a Ukai wheel and Suzue sealed hub (my bombproof touring wheel).

And these are nukeproof...

My 1955 Lenton runs a flip flop rear hub (zero dish) and and the wheels are vintage Dunlop EA1's (lightweight steel) which are 26 inch and use a 40 by 3 spoke pattern.
Click to expand...
You should watch some track events. Track wheels endure very high torque loads (only disc brakes produce higher) and flying around a highly banked velodrome isn't that easy on wheels. Notice how much more stoutly built track wheels under the people that actually use track bikes for their original purpose.

I know that the OP won't use the wheels for true track racing, but track wheels are built for a purpose and generally are much stronger than road wheels besides the dish issue.

-Eric
 
#18 ·
From the article..."The 4X wheel is most stiff to tangential
(braking and accelerating) loads on the rim." This will also depend on the hub flange diameter and number of spokes which is not discussed.

I read through that entire article and it was kind of muddled to me. Impact will affect a radial or 2x or 3x adversely so who cares. Forces from the rim (braking) also have the same affect on a wheel regardless of lacing. Lateral forces will fold any wheel regardless of lacing too. Where lacing is most important is the rear wheel which gets tangental forces from the chain pulling on the hub to make things go. Tangental forces are 90 degrees to the radius of the wheel. The ideal spoke positon would be 90 degrees to a radius in order to transmit all of that force to cause acceleration. 3x and 4x are both very close to 90. 4x works best with high flange hubs. Pick one, use DT or Sapim spokes. Both are great. I like 14/15/14 butted. They flex in the middle of the spoke and don't stress the sharp bend of the elbow which will fail most often. Use brass nips. Pick a good rim. Velocity, Mavic, DT or another. More rim material will be stiffer and stronger. less is ligher and flexier. Deep V's are the beefiest performance rims on the market. Velocity Fusions and CXP 33 by mavic are nice too. You can lace the front radial or 2x or 3x. I'd build up 32 rear 3x, and front 24 or 28 2x or radial. The thing about radial is that a hub needs to be designed for it. Check with the hub manufacturer.

Last thought is that 24 and 28 spoke wheels don't or can't lace easily 3x and won't 4x build enough wheels and this stuff gets clearer. 32 won't lace 4x in most cases either.

The best thing about track wheels is symmetry. Rear road wheels are different and mixing lacing patterns can improve things.
 
#19 ·
ergott said:
You should watch some track events. Track wheels endure very high torque loads (only disc brakes produce higher) and flying around a highly banked velodrome isn't that easy on wheels.
Click to expand...
Since the torque load is inversely proportional to the gear ratio, MTBs put much more torque into the wheel. For instance, for the same crank torque applied to a 24/34 (.75) gear will have 4.4 times as much torque at the hub as a 50/15 (3.33) ratio. Track riders seem to favor stiff bikes though, so I can see it from that angle... but a better bracing angle should be the best way to achieve that with a spoked wheel.
 
#20 ·
I hope this helps:

I'm 260lbs. I just started commuting on my 2006 Fuji Team with a set of Neuvation M28 Aero wheels (with ceramic bearings). I haven't noticed any flex at all, and they're still in true after well over 150mi (so far!). Now, that's not a lot of miles for a test, but damn, TWO HUNDRED SIXTY POUNDS!? That's like 85# over the "bike standard!" I previously used 34 spoke Mavic Open Pros, but these are stiffer, IMHO. I'm VERY impressed with them.
 
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