Saddle Rails - Carbon vs. Titanium

Zipp0 · Mar 31, 2010

What are the advantages/disadvantages? With all the torque needed on 2 bolt seatpost bolts, any danger of crushing carbon rails? Just thinking about the possibility of over torquing a carbon seat post made me wonder about the saddle rails in that regard.

Is either more vibration damping than the other? Carbon seems to have a very slight weight advantage. Thanks.

wim · Mar 31, 2010

The "damping" differences between steel, carbon and titanium rails are so small that they pretty much disappear into those resulting from manufacturing variations in saddle shell, padding and cover material. That leaves the slight weight advantage.

When installing the saddle, make sure the clamps dont have any sharp edges. (Some carbon rails have a protective metal cover to protect against gouging). Conventional wisdom is to use some friction paste on unprotected carbon and tighten to no more than 12 Nm. I'd stop at 10 Nm and see if that's enough.

Bike n Hike · Mar 31, 2010

Just my opinion, but I wouldn't buy a seat with carbon seat rails. I had a titanium seat rail snap on me. Not fun riding home on a broken seat. I'll only use steel rails from now on and never had steel rails break.

gamara · Mar 31, 2010

The problem with carbon rail saddles is that there is no standards for rail diameters. Every manufacturer has a different diameter. Which leads to the problem of finding a suitable seatpost that will work with it.

As noted, carbon is known to break or snap due to stress risers created by the clamps. So clamp design has an impact as well as improper torque. Personally I wouldn't go with carbon.

I've had titanium rails snap on me during a ride. Not fun. San Marco at that time issued a statement due to the high #'s of failures. They blamed poor clamp designs that lead to stress risers. They never warrantied my saddle even though I only had it for a short period of time.

Manufacturers tout the benefit of carbon rails as being shock dampening & being lighter. Shock dampening is full of crap. When rails are that short no matter what material it is, you will not be able to tell the difference. Its all hype.

Just for the record, I own 2 selle italia trans am & 1 prologo nago ti.

giro_man · Mar 31, 2010

<p>
I agree with wim about the damping differences of the various rail materials. I was concerned about this last year when I was trying to find a saddle that worked better for me. I concluded that the advantage of carbon is weight. gamara says that there are no standards for (carbon) rail diameters. I find that it is now the case for rails of all materials. There are non-carbon railed saddles which have rails that are oval shaped such as the Selle Italia Flite Team Edition. Its titanium rails are 7x9 mm. <br/>
<br/>
Whatever rail material and shape that you choose, make sure that it fits the clamping head of your seatpost. The clamp on an older seatpost might not fit rails that are larger than 7 mm and are not round in shape.
<p>

Peter P. · Mar 31, 2010

Zipp0 said:
What are the advantages/disadvantages? With all the torque needed on 2 bolt seatpost bolts, any danger of crushing carbon rails? Just thinking about the possibility of over torquing a carbon seat post made me wonder about the saddle rails in that regard.

Is either more vibration damping than the other? Carbon seems to have a very slight weight advantage. Thanks.

Your concerns are valid. While the advantages of carbon rails are lighter weight, for a given diameter the rails will flex more than steel. To retain sufficient strength, the rails have to have thicker walls than other materials; they can't have a larger diameter rail because they wouldn't fit standard seat rail clamps. And your concerns about crushing the rails is valid, too.

Carbon would have an advantage in vibration damping, but you won't win any races because of it. It should be obvious that steel rails were perfectly fine for decades.

Titanium rails may or may not be more resistant to crushing, depending on wall thickness. Better to get a saddle with solid titanium rod for rails. The weight penalty isn't even worth discussing.

Mr. Versatile · Apr 1, 2010

I wouldn't consider CF seat rails. Too much trouble, too much worry, almost 0 payback.

CEVIS · Apr 1, 2010

I've ridden a carbon rail Arione attached to a CF campy seat post for 5 years with no problems. That said, I don't think it makes a bit of difference so go with what makes you comfortable.

fontarin · Apr 1, 2010

I have a carbon rail Aliante, and it seems to work fine on my Lynskey.

You do have to be careful of size though. My Aliante won't fit on my Cannondale Synapse without alot of work, and I don't really consider it safe enough to ride.

8toes · Apr 1, 2010

The advantage for 99.9% of us who are buying saddles goes to the bike shop where these expensive marketing gimmicks are being purchased. How many of us have ridden steel rails for all but the most recent portion of our cycling lives? If the saddle is comfortable and fits, then that is the one I buy and ride. We are all fed so much garbage by cycling manufacturers and so many of us buy into whatever they tell us...like carbon bottle cages for $150+, CF stems, CF handlebars and CF pedals, et. al. None of which make any actual difference in our riding...call me a skeptic, or a luddite as I may very well be one. I question even if elite pros actually NEED this stuff. I do not question that the vast majority of us do not. Now....are there metallurgical, structural, technological advantages, probably. Do they translate into our "real world" riding? I do not think so.

Cheers,

Brian J.

CliveDS · Apr 1, 2010

Carbon rails without question.

Yes it's marketing and yes your LBS might make a few $$ more if they sell carbon over Ti but the return for the rider is without question.

I think only those who have never tried carbon rails will say you don't need it.

There is a pretty honest review on my blog by one of my friends who has 2 exact same bikes one with carbon rail Fizik and one with the Kuim rail.

SystemShock · Apr 1, 2010

Bike N Hike said:
Just my opinion, but I wouldn't buy a seat with carbon seat rails. I had a titanium seat rail snap on me. Not fun riding home on a broken seat. I'll only use steel rails from now on and never had steel rails break.

gamara said:
As noted, carbon is known to break or snap due to stress risers created by the clamps. So clamp design has an impact as well as improper torque. Personally I wouldn't go with carbon.

I've had titanium rails snap on me during a ride. Not fun. San Marco at that time issued a statement due to the high #'s of failures. They blamed poor clamp designs that lead to stress risers. They never warrantied my saddle even though I only had it for a short period of time.

Dang. This is quite worrisome to me, because I just bought a saddle with Ti rails, and am a heavy rider.

Could either or both of you gentleman go into a bit more detail about your Ti rail incidents? As in, which saddle(s) failed, how long did you use said saddles before they failed, how much do you weigh, exactly where did the rails snap (in the middle?), and any other details you'd care to share.

I really hope I don't end up having a similar incident.

.

Mootsie · Apr 1, 2010

I've snapped steel railed seats so nothing is really immune to breakage.

Peter P. · Apr 2, 2010

Mootsie said:
I've snapped steel railed seats so nothing is really immune to breakage.

Steel may not be IMMUNE to breakage, but it is more RESISTANT to breakage than aluminum, titanium, or carbon rails, MUCH more affordable, and the weight penalty is meaningless.

Much of the current problem is the evolution to HOLLOW titanium and carbon rails.

I look at the prices of today's saddles heading north of $200 and I can't comprehend it. In the mid 80's I was riding on solid steel railed PRO LEVEL saddles like the Sella Italia Turbo or Selle San Marco Concor that cost $30.

Read 8toes' post; he "gets it".

Bike n Hike · Apr 2, 2010

SystemShock said:
Dang. This is quite worrisome to me, because I just bought a saddle with Ti rails, and am a heavy rider.

Could either or both of you gentleman go into a bit more detail about your Ti rail incidents? As in, which saddle(s) failed, how long did you use said saddles before they failed, how much do you weigh, exactly where did the rails snap (in the middle?), and any other details you'd care to share.

I really hope I don't end up having a similar incident.
.

The saddle that broke on my bike was a Selle Italia Turbomatic made with solid titanium rod. One rail snapped right at the back edge where the clamp holds it. It was on my mountain bike for about 2 years. I'm sure it took more bumps than a road bike, but I only weigh 140 pounds. That's was in the early 1990's so was a while ago, but I checked and they still make the saddle, one version with carbon rails for about $170. Could have been just a freak incident, but like someone else said anything can break so who knows.

Mootsie · Apr 2, 2010

Peter P. said:
Steel may not be IMMUNE to breakage, but it is more RESISTANT to breakage than aluminum, titanium, or carbon rails, MUCH more affordable, and the weight penalty is meaningless.

Much of the current problem is the evolution to HOLLOW titanium and carbon rails.

I look at the prices of today's saddles heading north of $200 and I can't comprehend it. In the mid 80's I was riding on solid steel railed PRO LEVEL saddles like the Sella Italia Turbo or Selle San Marco Concor that cost $30.

Read 8toes' post; he "gets it".

And postage in the 80's was $0.15 cents and gas was a $1.03/gallon. Point is......

You confuse wants and needs. Some cyclists want the latest and greatest and are willing to "pay the price" both literally and in some cases with durability.
You "need" a seat, you want "performance" and something to drool over. Some enjoy it, some see it as "incomprehensible". Each to his own

Ride-Fly · Apr 2, 2010

Peter P. said:
I look at the prices of today's saddles heading north of $200 and I can't comprehend it. In the mid 80's I was riding on solid steel railed PRO LEVEL saddles like the Sella Italia Turbo or Selle San Marco Concor that cost $30.

+1,000! I can't believe the cost of some of the saddles. I have 2 Selle Italia Kit Carbonio Flows. I paid, $150 for each. I wouldn't pay the current $270 list price! No way no how!!

cwmbikes · Nov 24, 2010

I have a Selle Italia Prolink which snapped a rail on it, I have sent it off to have the rails replaced we will see what happens when the saddle comes back to me. For the record I am a heavy rider about 200 pounds and the saddle is two years old.

laffeaux · Nov 24, 2010

Unless you'd consider driving an F1 car to the grocery store if you could, I don't see any point in having a carbon railed saddle. Adding a fragile part that offers no significant weight savings makes little sense. If you're looking for the a smoother ride from the rails of your saddle, try thicker padding on the saddle or in your bike shorts - maybe even wider tires or less PSI in the tires - they'll make a a bigger difference.

Ride what works and will last.

CliveDS · Nov 25, 2010

laffeaux said:
Unless you'd consider driving an F1 car to the grocery store if you could, I don't see any point in having a carbon railed saddle. Adding a fragile part that offers no significant weight savings makes little sense. If you're looking for the a smoother ride from the rails of your saddle, try thicker padding on the saddle or in your bike shorts - maybe even wider tires or less PSI in the tires - they'll make a a bigger difference.

Ride what works and will last.

Your thinking is logical but I am going to suggest otherwise. Carbon rails enhance the feel of the saddle, maybe only a fraction but if you have the best of everything why not get whatever you can from the saddle as well. Read the review by Scott on my blog - he does a comparison.

Over the last 3-4 years Fizik and Selle Italia have developed carbon rails that do not break. Earlier Fizik rails were prone to snapping just behind the clamp but no more.

Saddle Rails - Carbon vs. Titanium

Zipp0

wim

Bike n Hike

gamara

giro_man

Peter P.

Mr. Versatile

CEVIS

fontarin

8toes

CliveDS

SystemShock

Mootsie

Peter P.

Bike n Hike

Mootsie

Ride-Fly

cwmbikes

laffeaux

CliveDS

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