Can I use Dura Ace pulley with Ultegra rear derailleur??

darelldd · Apr 3, 2011

The question is:
Can I use a full ball bearing jockey wheel with my 6700 Ultegra RD in place of the bushing unit that it came with? Is there any reason why I can't just stuff a Dura Ace jockey in there?

I've gone to great lengths to get rid of drive train drag... and that one upper pulley with the bushing in it is now the big drag. The lowest-end Sram RD has bearings in both jockey wheels.... but not the latest Ultegra?? Would love to find a way to upgrade. It is time to replace the upper jockey wheel anyway... so why not with something higher quality?

Thanks for any help!

Amfoto1 · Apr 3, 2011

I suspect that the DA would fit, but can't be certain... I've never tried it.

Actually, that bushing imparts incredibly little drag on the drive train. It's ceramic. You can lube it, too, since it disassembles quite easily.

But when I wore out the Shimano (6600) on one of my bikes, I just replaced them with a set of the ceramic bearing/ultralight alloy upgrades that's offered... They weren't much difference in price and work fine. Probably cheaper than a set of DA jockey wheels... Altho I don't think I've ever priced those.

PlatyPius · Apr 3, 2011

A ceramic bushing likely has less drag than a sealed bearing.

That said, pulleys are pulleys, for the most part. Dura Ace will fit on any 10 speed Shimano derailleur.

darelldd · Apr 3, 2011

Thanks guys. So there's a standard cage width and pivot hole, I guess. As long as I get the same number of teeth, it sounds like I should be fine. I'm a bit surprised to hear all the love for the ceramic bushing. I take mine apart and love them with some Phil Wood grease somewhat regularly. The lower (idler) has bearings, the upper (guide) has the bushing. There is no comparison in the drag even when they're cleaner and better lubed than when they were new. The bottom one spins freely when flicked. The upper bushinged one certainly doesn't. Of course that isn't how they're operated on the bike, but still. Maybe I'll try some aftermarket wheels in there.

jaltone · Feb 19, 2014

I know I'm replying to a nearly 3-year old post, but I was researching on this topic myself today and found this interesting old post on slow twitch that might add information value to this thread: Replacement Derailleur Pulleys?: Triathlon Forum: Slowtwitch Forums

That post doesn't give any numbers on the load (i.e., the P in the PV product) the guide pulley has, but the post seems to suggest that, though they spin very fast under load, the load value (i.e., the P in the PV product) is small enough, so much so, that the advantage of having a bearing over a bushing in that guide pulley is lost on most cyclists except for the world class elite ones who can make them spin insanely faster that it (i.e., the PV product going up as V goes up) begins to matter. So, for example, for someone like me whose legs can't even reach 20 mph speeds on flats, even a 105 class bushing guide pulley is most probably perfectly okay. Still, it gives me satisfaction to know something new technically about this beloved cycling hobby.

DaveT · Apr 3, 2011

darelldd said:
Thanks guys. So there's a standard cage width and pivot hole, I guess. As long as I get the same number of teeth, it sounds like I should be fine. I'm a bit surprised to hear all the love for the ceramic bushing. I take mine apart and love them with some Phil Wood grease somewhat regularly. The lower (idler) has bearings, the upper (guide) has the bushing. There is no comparison in the drag even when they're cleaner and better lubed than when they were new. The bottom one spins freely when flicked. The upper bushinged one certainly doesn't. Of course that isn't how they're operated on the bike, but still. Maybe I'll try some aftermarket wheels in there.

The upper pulley has a bushing because the pulley is designed to move slightly sideways when the derailleur is moved to shift the chain to the next cog, up or down.

darelldd · Apr 4, 2011

DaveT said:
The upper pulley has a bushing because the pulley is designed to move slightly sideways when the derailleur is moved to shift the chain to the next cog, up or down.

How do all the other RD's do this with bearings? The entire line of SRAM has bearings on the guide jockey. And of course the Dura Ace has bearings on that jockey.

The bushing definitely allows it to move sideways more than the idler. So now it begs the question: Will it still shift as well if I swap it out? It won't cost me all that much (in money or time) to find out.

GirchyGirchy · Apr 4, 2011

darelldd said:
It won't cost me all that much (in money or time) to find out.

Hell man, then try it! You'd have known by now how well (or not) it worked.

Peanya · Apr 4, 2011

You're overthinking this way too much! That "drag" you're getting won't make any noticeable difference when you're actually pedaling. That design is intentional; not to slow you down, but to improve shifting.
Over a 100 mile ride, changing to bearings might save you 2 seconds. On the other hand, freshly living your chain before a ride will save minutes.
If you want to get faster, train harder!

darelldd · Apr 4, 2011

Peanya said:
You're overthinking this way too much! That "drag" you're getting won't make any noticeable difference when you're actually pedaling. That design is intentional; not to slow you down, but to improve shifting.
Over a 100 mile ride, changing to bearings might save you 2 seconds. On the other hand, freshly living your chain before a ride will save minutes.
If you want to get faster, train harder!

Yup. I knew this comment would come eventually. The drag from pedals, from the wheels bearings, from the BB bearings from the chain - none of them are noticeable... yet they do all add up to something. I'm not about being faster, I'm about tinkering with my machine to make it as good as it came be. Besides riding, it is one of the things I enjoy doing. As for over-thinking.... that's just another one of my hobbies that goes hand-in-hand with my machine-improving one. There's no such thing as thinking things through too much just as there's no such thing as having "too much time" and no such thing as being too handsome. I'm fully aware that there are a huge percentage of people who have no wish to think about these things, and I apologize for interrupting.

So in this thread I've heard that the bushing is *better* than bearings. That it adds less drag. That the drag doesn't matter. That it is that way by design... yet nobody has come up with an answer about why the higher end offerings (meaning the lighter weight, more expensive and - in theory - higher-performing products) have a bearing in the guide jockey. Go to the top of the line RDs of any mfg, and you'll find bearings in that upper pulley. Why would they do this if a ceramic sleeve is better?? Makes no sense to me.

thanks, folks.

darelldd · Apr 4, 2011

GirchyGirchy said:
Hell man, then try it! You'd have known by now how well (or not) it worked.

I know, I know. But then I'd have to stop thinking about it. And I'd have missed this interesting discussion.

It does surprise me a bit that I haven't found anybody else who seems to have done or even considered this. I'm sure he/she's out there though.

jwp3476 · Apr 4, 2011

The Dura Ace 11 tooth pulleys will fit Ultegra and 105 just fine. The upper pulley has 2 rows of tiny ball bearings that ride on a shaft and allows a little side to side movement. Shimano says that they are "sealed" bearings but there really aren't sealed. I clean and lube the Dura Ace jockey wheel bearings every couple of thousand miles or after riding in the rain.

darelldd · Apr 5, 2011

jwp3476 said:
The Dura Ace 11 tooth pulleys will fit Ultegra and 105 just fine. The upper pulley has 2 rows of tiny ball bearings that ride on a shaft and allows a little side to side movement. Shimano says that they are "sealed" bearings but there really aren't sealed. I clean and lube the Dura Ace jockey wheel bearings every couple of thousand miles or after riding in the rain.

Outstanding. Thanks for the answer. I know all about the "sealed" bit. All of my pulley bearings and bushings are considered "sealed" and well... not quite!

Peanya · Apr 5, 2011

You obviously didn't actually read all of what I posted, did you? You stopped at "you're overthinking this". I thought about this too: a couple of seconds, at most, over 100 miles? Yes, that IS insignificant!
However, some brands use bearings for people just like you. Why not go all out and get those custom pulleys that are oversized? They flex the chain less than a bushing, and reduce friction more that way too. Hey, you'll see some tour riders using them.
What I want to know, is if you already have the best answer, why are you asking anyway?

darelldd · Apr 5, 2011

Peanya said:
You obviously didn't actually read all of what I posted, did you? You stopped at "you're overthinking this". I thought about this too: a couple of seconds, at most, over 100 miles? Yes, that IS insignificant!
However, some brands use bearings for people just like you. Why not go all out and get those custom pulleys that are oversized? They flex the chain less than a bushing, and reduce friction more that way too. Hey, you'll see some tour riders using them.
What I want to know, is if you already have the best answer, why are you asking anyway?

Wow. Deep breath.

Yes, I read every word of your post. Of course it only answered questions that I did not ask (and accused me of various character flaws). I didn't bother commenting on the "if you want to go faster, then train harder" part of your post. Nowhere in my original post did I mention or imply that I wanted to go faster. I'm trying to remove the drag from my drive train. Not for additional speed - but because I want to remove drag from my drive train.

I did NOT already know the answer - though I think I've gotten my answer now from this thread. The answer is apparently, YES.

I had no idea that there were "people just like me." You mean the people who buy bottom-of-the-line SRAM Apex or top-of-the-line Shimano Dura Ace?.... or anything in-between?

Life's too short to be angry. Please.... if you're upset at my question, or upset at why I am asking it, please just ignore me. Thanks.

55d4a396 · Apr 23, 2013

So ... what happened - did you try the DA pulleys in the Ultegra derailieur? Do they work OK?

I want to do the same switch - esp. after friction-facts.com's results!

Why waste half a watt on pulley friction

Thanks!

darelldd · Apr 23, 2013

55d4a396 said:
So ... what happened - did you try the DA pulleys in the Ultegra derailieur? Do they work OK

Excellent! Two years have gone by since this thread started. And no, I still didn't change to bearings. I just bought two new bikes instead.

What still amazes me is that we have yet to hear from anybody who has done this switch. The next time I find the bearings pulleys when I'm putting an order in, I'll go ahead and get some. And maybe, MAYBE report back here as the first human on earth to have attempted this daring feat.

(In the meantime, I just rebuilt a Shimano rear der from my 1984 Fisher mountain bike. It has stainless bushings running on a stainless shoulder bolt. The things still spin like brand new after cleaning and lubing. I can't even guess how many hard, wet miles this der has on it. Still working perfectly!)

mann2 · Apr 23, 2013

as long as they're both 10 speed, you'll be fine.

ddimick · Apr 23, 2013

I'm running my bike this way now. It works fine. I didn't notice any difference, good or bad, between the old bushing pulley and new bearing pulley.

JimP · Apr 23, 2013

I have DA pulleys on all of my bikes. One has an Ultegra derailleur. 9 and 10 speed Shimano road derailleurs use an 11 tooth pulley. I have used Tacx and other 11 tooth pulleys over the years. Some seem to have better bearings than DA but don't shift quite as well.

darelldd · Apr 23, 2013

Thanks Jim! That's a pretty definitive answer.

darelldd · Feb 19, 2014

I'm thrilled that you are responding after all this time (it isn't as if the physics has changed any in three years)... And with curious/thinking/interest instead of annoyance. Thanks!

In my tinkering with various RD's since my original post, I've found that in general, and under my "no load" testing, most of my bushings spin more freely than the ones with bearings (this is after everything is clean and with fresh oil). My guess is that's different under load.

If we assume that bearings are more expensive, and are only an advantage to elite cyclists, it still leaves the big question unanswered: Why do some makers put bearings in both positions even in their low-end gruppos, while others ONLY put a bearing in both jocky wheels on their top-end. Maybe high-quality bushings are still better than low-quality bearings?. I just can't stop wondering why these choices are made.

In the grand scheme of things, it really doesn't matter. But I'm always curious about this stuff.

jaltone · Feb 19, 2014

I'm glad you asked that question, because I had kept on reading earlier and found this even older but still relevant post: Ultegra Rear Der. Design Flaw?

To quote Wordbiker, "One can either have good, easily cleaned seals with a slight amount of drag, very well sealed bearings that are tougher to clean (or may just have to be replaced), or a lightly sealed open system that will spin freely until it gets contaminated. Shimano strikes a good balance for most users by having a design that is easily maintained, and designed to work longer with less adjusting needed."

Bushings are mechanically simpler than bearings, and more easily cleaned. I suppose Shimano thinks those attributes are more important especially if majority of cyclists don't have the time, inclination, or skill (and I don't have the skills) to take apart their rear derailleurs and clean them every thousand miles or so. I simply take a clean rag and wipe it clean as much as I can without taking it off the bike, so it's really not that clean as a skilled person might make it to be. I've got a 5700 rear derailleur that, as best as I know, has steel bushings for both pulleys.

However, SRAM apparently thinks otherwise, and assumes that people will maintain their bikes better than the average person does, in return for a slightly smoother pulley. I suppose these are the reasons behind the design choices Shimano and SRAM made.

Wordbiker mentioned something interesting as well. SRAM's 1:1 pull ratio means it's not troubled as much as Shimano's 2:1 pull ratio when cable stretch causes the guide pulley to be misaligned a tiny bit. I suppose bushings can be made to have an inherent side to side play much easier than bearings, thus the choice made by Shimano? I'm only guessing here. But based on Wordbiker's next paragraph he implies that bearings lack an inherent side to side play. Or some or even most of them anyway. I suppose Shimano thinks that if you're riding with Dura-Ace components, you probably belong to a team with skilled mechanics who service these parts regularly. And I suppose that solves well the bushings vs bearings issue at that level.

darelldd · Feb 19, 2014

From the article you linked, I find it interesting (from 2011) that it is assumed jockey wheels only use bushings. Interesting thread.

>> As an aside, the derailleur pulleys use "bushings" which are a subset of "bearings" <<

darelldd · Feb 19, 2014

Ha! Great find! Basically my same question.

From what I can tell (I need to go look closely again while paying attention) the Sram solution allows for side-to-side play. I'm not sure how they're accomplishing that though. Not within the bearing races I'm pretty sure!

With lots of miles on both systems, I'm really not seeing a maintenance difference between the two. I take them both apart every 5-7k miles. Remove jockeys. Take them apart. Blast all the gunk off. Re-lube. They both work better after...And they both seem to last forever with little sign of bearing wear.

roadbat · Jun 3, 2015

For all the exaggerated attention paid to trivial or minor aspects in bicycle 'tweaking', it may be more pertinent regarding pulleys, to note which brand your derailleur is, and be sure to choose appropriate parts, whether OEM or aftermarket. Campy and Shimano both have similarly 'floating' upper pulleys, designed to move sideways for better chain position. Service and lubing or replacing will have markedly greater effect on shifting precision, than on perceived drag or pedalling effort, and in fact more drag may be the result when a chain is constantly just a bit off, i.e. making a bit of noise. If you keep at your fine barrel adjuster but never quite get the range to seem all good, try the clean/oil of the pulleys, especially the upper, which both spins and needs to slide freely. I suspect a good light oil works better, but may attract dirt faster. The ceramic options can stay cleaner but still need something.
Shimano should all be compatible, but don't change the tooth count, as that moves the chainline from the original design intent.

cxwrench · Jun 3, 2015

roadbat said:
Shimano should all be compatible, but don't change the tooth count, as that moves the chainline from the original design intent.

You're confusing 'chainline' w/ some other term...I have no idea what, but chainline has nothing to do w/ pulleys.

roadbat · Jun 8, 2015

As I wrote on the other section, I write whenever I stumble across a forum that I think I may have some info to add or offer, and the fact that I came upon several different topics while doing a search on various things bears no connection with either the infrequency in which I elect to write, nor the apparent dated nature of the threads. In this case clearly others also refreshed the debate, so it ain't just me.
Also, cxwrench stated "You're confusing 'chainline' . . . I have no idea what, but chainline has nothing to do w/ pulleys." Chainline refers to the plane the loop of chain travels in, so yes, strictly; what I was looking at is the side view, and how close to the cogs the pulley and chain come when various gear combos are used. See this for detailed info Park Tool Co. » ParkTool Blog » Rear Derailler Adjustments (derailleur)
Cage clearances may not allow idlers with more teeth anyhow, but if a larger guide pulley were used the B adjustment is going to be important or else contact with some cogs may occur. That's all.

Can I use Dura Ace pulley with Ultegra rear derailleur??

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