tubular tires : removing and putting on new ones

myhui · Oct 5, 2012

I'm preparing to plunge in to this new world of using tubular tires for daily commuting. I want to work out the whole "work flow" before I actually start doing it.

Namely, how do I efficiently remove the old tire that has a puncture, possibly fix the puncture, and then put it back on again or put on a new tire again? I don't know how to cleanly peel off the old tire and clean off the glue. Is there a special chemical I should use to do this properly?

The alternative is to have several wheelsets ready and send the blown tires still on wheels to the LBS whenever a puncture happens. I'm definitely going to buy the most rugged tires and do everything I can to keep them as resilient to puncture as possible. I think that means riding with a low air pressure in the tire, and not sit on the bike when going over big bumps.

wim · Oct 5, 2012

The old way (and I'm old) is to first glue your tires so they stay on safely, but not so tight that you can't get them off by hand. When you have a flat:

- pull the flat tire off,
- put a spare (a pre-ridden and pre-glued tire) on,
- pump the spare up,
- ride on.

You don't remove the old glue. In fact, it's needed to hold the spare on. If you get good, you can do a tubular tire change in about two minutes. Nowadays with all the fear-mongering going on, many people glue their tubulars so there's no way to get them off by hand. In that case, I think they use a sealant to "fix" the flat.

Curious: why do you want to commute on tubulars? I rode / repaired them for about 20 years and got rid of them for good when good clinchers became available.

myhui · Oct 5, 2012

I decided to go with tubular tires since I am trying out those new carbon rims and am worried that under braking heat the rims will deform and result in catastrophic failure.

I plan to use Tufo tires and glue them on with tape also made by Tufo. I now see that this may not leave any glue on the rims after I remove the tire. Does using Tufo tape qualify as not gluing them on too tight?

Also, I don't insist on fixing them on the road, although you have just shown me how it is entirely possible to do so. But how did you patch the puncture after the tire is removed, other than spraying in sealant which I prefer not to do since it increases the weight and is not a permanent solution since the glass shard is still there?

cxwrench · Oct 5, 2012

myhui said:
I decided to go with tubular tires since I am trying out those new carbon rims and am worried that under braking heat the rims will deform and result in catastrophic failure.

I plan to use Tufo tires and glue them on with tape also made by Tufo. I now see that this may not leave any glue on the rims after I remove the tire. Does using Tufo tape qualify as not gluing them on too tight?

Also, I don't insist on fixing them on the road, although you have just shown me how it is entirely possible to do so. But how did you patch the puncture after the tire is removed, other than spraying in sealant which I prefer not to do since it increases the weight and is not a permanent solution since the glass shard is still there?

DO NOT tape your tires. this is not an effective way of keeping a tire on a rim. lots of people do it, but i can tell you about example after example of taped tires not being securely held on to rim. the edge of the rim is the most critical place for the bond to be secure and i have yet to see a tubular tape that allows that to happen.
i'm also wondering why you're planning on using carbon rims for your commute wheels. if you insist on doing this make sure you buy some high quality wheels from a reputable brand (Zipp, Enve) and you won't have a problem w/ clinchers. it seems like you've got an idea in your head that you want carbon wheels but not enough knowledge to make an educated buying decision.
as for 'patching' the puncture, this is pretty involved. you have to remove the basetape from the casing, open up the casing and in the case of Tufo, patch the casing as there is no tube. in a normal tubular, you'd open up the casing and patch the tube. then sew the casing back up, glue the base tape back on, and re-mount the tire to the wheel. this is obviously not a roadside repair. you always need to have at least 1 spare tire w/ you when riding.

wim · Oct 5, 2012

myhui said:
But how did you patch the puncture after the tire is removed, other than spraying in sealant which I prefer not to do since it increases the weight and is not a permanent solution since the glass shard is still there?

You sit down on a cold and rainy winter night with all your punctured tubulars and repair them by finding the hole, pulling off a section of base tape, cutting the stitching, removing the afflicted section of tube, patching the hole, stuffing the section of tube back into the tire, sewing the tire seam shut again (using the existing needle holes) and gluing the base tape back on. Now you know why people rather buy a new tubular.

Never used tape and never owned a carbon wheel, so someone else will have to answer your concerns about that. I can't imagine why you would heat up your rims up significantly unless your commute involves a long and steep switch-back descent. Also don't understand why tubulars would be better on hot rims than clinchers. In the old days, a super-hot rim would make a tubular creep around the wheel, sometimes ripping the valve off. But as said, I'm old and don't know much anymore.

Edit: didn't see cxwrench's post before I posted. Agree with him 100%.

/w

myhui · Oct 5, 2012

I am trying to find the right balance between gluing on the tires too tight, or not tight enough. That is one of two reasons I thought using tape is the best compromise. The other reason is that the way the tape and tire goes on seems to offer a slightly better centered tire in the end, compared to using glue. So if you insist on gluing, then how do I not glue them on too tight? Please tell me your special technique.

Is the base tape you refer to part of the tire? I'm at a loss on the terminology here. I don't think the Tufo tires I bought can be opened up and then sew back up. But perhaps I need to take a closer look.

wim · Oct 5, 2012

myhui said:
So if you insist on gluing, then how do I not glue them on too tight? Please tell me your special technique.

Is the base tape you refer to part of the tire? I'm at a loss on the terminology here. I don't think the Tufo tires I bought can be opened up and then sew back up. But perhaps I need to take a closer look.

There is no special technique I can recommend to you. Just use the proper tubular tire cement and follow instructions. Don't use too much glue and make sure you put the prepared tire on the glued rim within the time recommended by the cement manufacturer. That will give you time to center the tire. But wait for someone with Tufo and tape experience, it's a completely different way of mounting tubulars.

The base tape is the strip of fabric with the red edge lines. It protects the seam. In the photo, it has been cut and a section of it has been removed. Where it was removed, it exposed the seam and the stitching. You can see how someone opened a section of the stitching to get to the (dark) tube. Hopefully, that is where the hole is. You also hope that you don't put a hole into the newly-patched tube with your sewing needle when you sew the tire shut again. Did I tell you you need a thimble?

But again: why are doing this to yourself? Carbon wheels with tubulars for commuting seem bizarre to me. Matching your wheels and tires to your intended purpose might be the better way to go here.

PJ352 · Oct 6, 2012

wim said:
... why are doing this to yourself? Carbon wheels with tubulars for commuting seem bizarre to me. Matching your wheels and tires to your intended purpose might be the better way to go here.

Says it all, IMHO. Well put.

OP: Take your own advice and take that 'closer look'. Me? I'd go with a mid-point alu wheelset, KoolStop Salmons, Conti Gatorskins and a saddle bag with all the 'essentials' (mainly, tubes, patch kit, CO2...) for my commuter.

myhui · Oct 6, 2012

Here is one Tufo Hi-Composite Carbon Tubular Tire Gray Tread/Black Sidewall 700x22 $58.49, bought at biketiresdirect.com on 8/31/2012 11:04:00 PM.

I think the base tape is never meant to be removed from the tire, or repaired at home at least. Is that right?

My original line of reasoning is thus:

I don't have iron thumbs, but a few mechanics at my LBS has, and I've always hated the clincher tire reassembly process where hand pressure is preferred. So I thought, well, let's try something else this time. Asking a LBS to replair a clincher flat tire is too big a hit on my pride to swallow, so I always do it myself.

The carbon clinchers do seem to have a weakness in the way they're designed, in that carbon is not good at holding the kind of sideways force exerted on the side walls of the rims, and they are more sensitive to heat compared to aluminum.

Then I saw this video from Continental: Continental - mounting instruction for tubular tyres, aluminium rims - YouTube What scared me was not the procedure itself, but size of that mechanic's biceps and his iron thumbs. Hence that partly negates my #1 reason.

So what if I buy several more of these $58.49 tires, and as long as I am able to cleanly remove them and put a new one on if I get a flat, then at least I can keep riding, if not immediately, but at least the very next day, and then fix the flat on some other day?

Is there any flat fixing method that is specific to tubular tires that involves only a small amount of sealant, perhaps injected through the puncture hole via a needle, and after it dries is able to bring the tire back to service?

cxwrench · Oct 6, 2012

i've glued a lot of tires...probably over a thousand at this point. i've never once repaired a punctured tired...i'm not that patient and i don't flat very often. i've never had one roll, either. i was taught by race mechanics so when i mount a tire, it's not coming off w/o some effort. i wouldn't have it any other way...i want that thing stuck on there as securely as possible...if it gets ruined when i take it off, oh well.
what i'm saying is...if you're going to use tubulars, mount them correctly. you DO NOT ever want one to roll. i'm not quite sure what people are talking about when they say they 'mount their tires so they're no so hard to remove'. the way i see it, that means they're not mounted properly. if anyone one of the racers i take care of ever crashed because a tire i glued came off on a 40mph corner i don't know what i'd do...that would be about the worst thing i can imagine.

myhui · Oct 6, 2012

Tufo does make a sealant, so contrary to what I said in an earlier post, it is certainly an attractive alternative. When your only other choice is to throw away the $60 tire, why not give it a second life by putting in sealant?

Scroll to the end, second video from the bottom: Sealant EXTREME application for TUFO road tubular tyre: http://www.tufo.com/installation-video-1/

I just tried again getting that Tufo tubular installed over my clean new carbon wheel, and my thumbs still aren't strong enough. I need to ask for Popeye's help. Or use some tire install levers that are meant for clinchers.

pilotman520 · Oct 6, 2012

Why carbon? I'm new to this whole road thing but I have been using tubeless on my mountain bikes for years. Why not go that way for a commuter?

cxwrench · Oct 6, 2012

myhui said:
Tufo does make a sealant, so contrary to what I said in an earlier post, it is certainly an attractive alternative. When your only other choice is to throw away the $60 tire, why not give it a second life by putting in sealant?

Scroll to the end, second video from the bottom: Sealant EXTREME application for TUFO road tubular tyre: TUFO - Tubeless bicycle tyres - Installation video

I just tried again getting that Tufo tubular installed over my clean new carbon wheel, and my thumbs still aren't strong enough. I need to ask for Popeye's help. Or use some tire install levers that are meant for clinchers.

why not put the sealant in from the start? you might not ever flat...

when you put the tires on, start w/ the valve at the top, w/ the rim on the ground. put your hands about 12" from the valve and pull the sh*t outta that tire, towards the ground. creep your hands down the tire, pulling as you go. it may take a while to get it on there, but you'll get it. then inflate it and let it stretch. next day put a couple coats of glue on, let them dry, then back on the wheel for another stretch. next day, one last coat on the wheel and throw the tire on. easy peasy.

myhui · Oct 6, 2012

cxwrench said:
why not put the sealant in from the start? you might not ever flat...

I think the sealant reacts to air, so the moment it's exposed to air, its consistency changes from liquid to gooey solid. So if you put it in when tire is new, then by the time you get a flat, the sealant is already a solid bumping around somewhere in the tire, unable to creep to the puncture hole as only a liquid can. :idea:

myhui · Oct 6, 2012

pilotman520 said:
Why carbon? I'm new to this whole road thing but I have been using tubeless on my mountain bikes for years. Why not go that way for a commuter?

Carbon because it's light weight. I've been riding on aluminum rims since the 1960's. I think I've paid my dues, and now it's time for an upgrade.

Here's something I ought to have said in my original post, and I should have made it painfully obvious right from the start: the only time I have for getting on a bike and enjoying the ride is during commuting. I'm not free enough in my other commitments in life to actually go out and enjoy a 100 mile ride every long weekend. So, purely out of necessity, I have to ride to and from work in order to be able to ride at all. Of course I want to ride a fancy bike, but I call it a commuter bike since that's the purpose of the transport, but not the nature of the ride itself. I do go as fast as possible, and I make it a very technical ride from a health point of view.

forge55b · Oct 6, 2012

myhui said:
I think the sealant reacts to air, so the moment it's exposed to air, its consistency changes from liquid to gooey solid. So if you put it in when tire is new, then by the time you get a flat, the sealant is already a solid bumping around somewhere in the tire, unable to creep to the puncture hole as only a liquid can. :idea:

Nope, I've had Stan's in for a year and after finally having a puncture (that was pretty quickly sealed when I finally stopped going up hill) I did a little maintenance on both tires and the non-punctured tire still had a lot of liquid inside so it lasted past the 9 months that they say it stays in a liquid state.

Either way, commuting on tubulars isn't that big a deal if you go with a durable, non-race tire. But if you are taping em, good luck. They are less likely to be easily centered vs glue imho. Weaker bond resulting in potentially rolling a tire. After taking them off, the glue is a PITA to work with vs Mastik One or Conti glue.

myhui · Oct 6, 2012

cxwrench said:
when you put the tires on, start w/ the valve at the top, w/ the rim on the ground. put your hands about 12" from the valve and pull the sh*t outta that tire, towards the ground. creep your hands down the tire, pulling as you go.

That technique was perfect! Thank you! It allowed me to put each tire on in less than a minute. I had to go at it twice for one tire. That big guy in the Continental Tire video was showing off his bicep's strength by not using his body weight to stretch the tire. By locking my elbows, it hardly strained my own biceps at all.

This technique is never used when putting on clinchers. With tubulars, I need to distribute the stretch all around the tire. I suppose with clinchers, it can also help, except there's so much friction between tire and rim that this stretching technique won't be nearly as effective.

But I've noticed one thing: in some sections of tire, there is a slight longitudinal stretch, much like the twisting marks you see on a dragster's rear tires when it's caught on camera right at max acceleration. I tried to ease out these stretch marks by lifting tire up and redistributing the stretch, but in some places this isn't entirely successful. I also noticed the tire isn't centered very well, even after a few minutes of adjustments. I think this shows I ought to use Tufo tape for my first few tire installs, until I become very good at centering the tire and putting it on quickly before the glue dries.

The wheels are Farsports 50mm tubulars from a recent group buy on Velobuild. I can't pump them up since I don't have valve extenders. I need to go get those soon.

myhui · Oct 6, 2012

forge55b said:
Nope, I've had Stan's in for a year and after finally having a puncture (that was pretty quickly sealed when I finally stopped going up hill) I did a little maintenance on both tires and the non-punctured tire still had a lot of liquid inside so it lasted past the 9 months that they say it stays in a liquid state.

Thanks for this note. I guess it depends on the type of sealant.

forge55b said:
Either way, commuting on tubulars isn't that big a deal if you go with a durable, non-race tire. But if you are taping em, good luck. They are less likely to be easily centered vs glue imho. Weaker bond resulting in potentially rolling a tire. After taking them off, the glue is a PITA to work with vs Mastik One or Conti glue.

Here's the confusing part: with glue, you want multiple layers to assure a good bond, so old glue is helpful, as long as it isn't so lumpy that it starts to affect the bond and the tire. But with tape, are you saying I need to completely remove the glue that came with the tape when I replace a tire, assuming I also use tape for installing my next tire?

That was why I started this whole thread asking how do I remove the glue, if it's true that I need to do that in the first place? Do I use a solvent?

wim · Oct 6, 2012

i'm not quite sure what people are talking about when they say they 'mount their tires so they're no so hard to remove'.

What I'm talking about is this: a long time ago, a rider on tubulars had to be able to remove a flat tire on the road and mount a spare in a reasonable amount of time. For some years, this was even true for racers in road races. If you glued your tires so you couldn't get them off easily, you were left standing on the side of the road for a while. Since I grew up thinking that changing a tubular flat quickly was part of being a good bicycle rider, I suppose it's hard for me to let go of that notion and not respond with some of these ancient ideas to a question about removing and putting on tubular tires.

Of course, I know that things have changed. With sealants, everyone bringing spare wheels to a race and wheel vans following even Cat 5 road races now, that old notion of a fast tubular tire change has lost its validity. But I can tell you that in 20 years of riding and racing on tubulars, I never rolled a tubular and was always able to get a flat one off a rim easily. So technically, it is possible to mount a tubular safely and still have it easily removable. If the need to remove it quickly is no longer important now, so be it.

/w

cxwrench · Oct 6, 2012

myhui said:
That technique was perfect! Thank you! It allowed me to put each tire on in less than a minute. I had to go at it twice for one tire. That big guy in the Continental Tire video was showing off his bicep's strength by not using his body weight to stretch the tire. By locking my elbows, it hardly strained my own biceps at all.

This technique is never used when putting on clinchers. With tubulars, I need to distribute the stretch all around the tire. I suppose with clinchers, it can also help, except there's so much friction between tire and rim that this stretching technique won't be nearly as effective.

But I've noticed one thing: in some sections of tire, there is a slight longitudinal stretch, much like the twisting marks you see on a dragster's rear tires when it's caught on camera right at max acceleration. I tried to ease out these stretch marks by lifting tire up and redistributing the stretch, but in some places this isn't entirely successful. I also noticed the tire isn't centered very well, even after a few minutes of adjustments. I think this shows I ought to use Tufo tape for my first few tire installs, until I become very good at centering the tire and putting it on quickly before the glue dries.

The wheels are Farsports 50mm tubulars from a recent group buy on Velobuild. I can't pump them up since I don't have valve extenders. I need to go get those soon.

i really don't think you should risk rolling a tire because you are nervous about getting one centered properly using glue. if you stretch the tire when new (this also confirms that it holds air...if it leaks and you haven't put any glue on it, you can warranty the tire. if there's any glue, no warranty) then put a couple coats of glue on the basetape, let it dry, then re-stretch, you'll have no problems at all getting it straight. i put the last coat of glue on the rim and immediately mount the tire. if the tire is stretched, no problem at all.
remember...tape is for presents, glue is for tires

tubular tires : removing and putting on new ones

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