Upgrade from Cannondale SuperSix non-EVO to C-dale SuperSix EVO

ericm979 · Feb 24, 2015

Judging from my experience with going from aluminium rims to 45/50mm carbon rims, the speed difference on a descent is pretty small. I'd guess maybe 1 mph at speeds over 35 or so. You'll see less going from 45 to 60mm.

It enabled me to hang with more people on descents in one particular race, but these are fast non technical descents and I was not getting gapped in the corners- it was on the straights. I learned to tuck better and that helped more. I'm tall but light and thus at an aerodynamic disadvantage.

The class I took was put on by one of my racing club members who was a good descender and decent teacher (he's on some other team now). It was when I'd just come back to racing. From it I found out that my line choice was fine, I just wasn't leaning over far enough. The feedback helped.

I'm not super fast but I have been able to help some people I've been riding with by teaching them better line choice. One of the things I teach people is to use a late apex line on roads they are unsure of or don't have good sight lines on. It's very nearly as fast as a classic center apex but has the advantage of giving you more space to manuver on the corner exit should there be something unexpected there. Confidence is a big part of going fast down hill. Late apexing also means that you don't need to trail brake into the turn, which is something that always makes me nervous.

One other thing I have done to work on cornering is to pick a good safe downhill corner on a route I ride frequently and practice going faster in it each time by letting off the brakes earlier.

Something that might help you is to close the gaps right as you exit the turn. A short burst of power to close the gap takes less energy than trying to close a larger gap later, or trying to close it gradually.

One more tip- in group ride descents, get behind someone who is smooth and good. I seem to often get behind the worst descender in the group. If he takes the line I can't pass so whatver gap he leaves I'll also have to close.

TricrossRich · Feb 24, 2015

I think you've made a great decision... I think you've got a great bike already and the $1000 could be spent elsewhere to make it even better.

If you had told me you were on a Caad8 Tiagra, then I'd have a different opinion.

tvad · Feb 24, 2015

multirider said:
...my head is full of thoughts of the unexpected -- front or rear tire washes out due to gravel in the turn or bumps or potholes or just too much speed, a blow out, a guy in front of me goes down, a car or motorcycle comes across the line from the oncoming lane, a lightning bolt strikes in front of me, or whatever. After numerous broken bones and a LOT of scraped off skin from motocross, I don't want to go down and get hurt. Ever again.

I can relate to everything you've shared in that statement. No shame in keeping the rubber side down and returning safely home to ride again tomorrow.

There comes a point in our cycling lives when we decide to ride with the big boys and do what it takes to stay with the group and excel (improve our skills, overcome our fears), or we decide to ride with a slower group in which we feel comfortable without the added stress. There's no right decision, IMO.

multirider · Feb 24, 2015

tvad said:
I can relate to everything you've shared in that statement. No shame in keeping the rubber side down and returning safely home to ride again tomorrow.

There comes a point in our cycling lives when we decide to ride with the big boys and do what it takes to stay with the group and excel (improve our skills, overcome our fears), or we decide to ride with a slower group in which we feel comfortable without the added stress. There's no right decision, IMO.

When I raced motocross, I had a simple philosophy -- "if he can do it, I can do it". I applied that to everyone and everything - the biggest jumps, the fastest corners, the roughest whooped-out sections of the track. I was rarely first to do anything, but if anyone hit the new triple jump, I would hit it. Pretty much whatever it took -- turning what was designed by the track builder as a double-double into a quad or whatever, if someone else did it, I just reached inside my brain, turned it off, and held the throttle open. That worked very well -- until it didn't. Which generally resulted in an ambulance ride to the ER. My top priority used to be being the fastest. Now it is being safe. But I am still pretty competitive and have a bit of the "if he can do then I can do it" impulse.

I'm about 6'1" and 170 pounds. As Ericm979 said -- "tall but light" which causes an aerodynamic disadvantage. In pack situations, that means I frequently don't get full draft behind others because it seems like there are a lot of cyclists of shorter stature. When I don't stay close on high speed corners because I'm nervous about the corner and nervous about the pack, it creates an instant gap. Exiting a little tighter (late apex) and hitting the gas earlier should help. I feel like I should have come up with both of those on my own because they sound obvious, but I don't think I've done a good job of anticipating the exit, planning for it, and jumping on it in advance to prevent the gap.

My height and weight was one of the reasons why I started thinking about deeper aero wheels. Tokyo Wheels has a 60mm front / 88mm rear combo that is pretty appealing: Wheel Performance Their web site is pretty cool - virtual factory tour, great blogs and forums, 365 day return policy where they pay the return shipping.

Or a smart trainer so I get more focused and structured workouts . . .

Lots of extremely helpful observations, feedback, and advice. This forum and thread helped me not waste my money on a bike that would be virtually the same as my current bike and not address the root cause issues. VERY much appreciate it!

In my recent web research, I came across this site which makes the point that aero is WAY more important than weight on all but the longest or steepest climbs:
Wheel Performance

Hope that helps others!

tvad · Feb 24, 2015

^I think considering your mountain/hill riding, the 60/88mm wheels are too deep and could cause you to get blown around in windy descents...furthering your nervousness.

Enve SES 3.4 wheels might be a better alternative (or Zipp 202/303 Firecrest rims with DT Swiss/White Industries/Chris King hubs). I hesitate these days to mention anything about Zipp wheels because of the detractors on this website. HED Belgium C2 rims built with any of the above hubs would also have reasonably good aerodynamics and good weight for climbing wheels.

But, honestly, I think concentrating on your technique, and perhaps paying for six cycling coaching sessions would be more beneficial...if you can locate a good cycling coach in your area. Getting into a better aerodynamic position on the bike will reap more immediate benefits than will aero wheels (assuming you're not already riding in a good aerodynamic position).

ericm979 · Feb 24, 2015

I'm 6' and 145 lbs. Having 25lbs more would help a lot on descents.
I agree that super deep rims may be more trouble than they are worth if they mean you are blown around by the wind more. It really depends on the rim shape and on the rider- some people are bothered more by the slight instability than others are.

I also have a background in motorsports- I did motorcycle road racing and track schools, then switched to motorcycle observed trials. And I've been street riding motorcycles for almost 40 years.

I found that just telling my brain "go faster" didn't work past a certain point. Perhaps I am too analytical and too cautious. What did work is breaking down the actions until I understand how things work and find where I can make improvements. For motorcycle road racing I learned a lot from Keith Code's books and from track schools with more advanced racers. The same with trials- whenever someone offered a class I took it, and I got a lot of pointers from more advanced riders during group practice sessions.

One thing I learned from trials (and MTB riding) is to look where I want to go, not at the thing I am trying to avoid. You tend to go where you look. In street motorcycling its called target fixation and when I started trials I though that 25 years of street riding had have cured me of it. I was wrong. At first I was like "don't hit the rock. Do not hit the rock. THUNK!". It took some practice to really learn to not target fixate. I still work on it.

It came in handy on a group ride a couple years ago on a fast twisty descent where a car left turned just in front of us then stopped in the road as the driver froze. The rider in front of me, a multi world champ, fixated on the car and hit it. The rider behind me hit it. I looked for an exit and took it, missing the car. (everyone rode home)

Not that I am super awesome, but that time my mental work on avoiding target fixation worked for me.

Another thing I learned is to have actions pre-planned for when I need them. Pothole or gravel on my line? I have a couple different programs I can choose depending on circumstances. Some of that is just from experience, some from thinking things out ahead of time.

If you're in Denver, you should be able to find some sort of coaching in Boulder.

CoffeeBean2 · Feb 24, 2015

multirider said:
Which generally resulted in an ambulance ride to the ER. My top priority used to be being the fastest. Now it is being safe. But I am still pretty competitive and have a bit of the "if he can do then I can do it" impulse.

This probably isn't going to help you any, but I've taken 2 ambulance rides to the ER, once because I crashed on a descent. After I recovered from my concussion and broken collarbone, I was nervous going down that hill (South Boulder Road) the first few times. Now, it's no longer a big deal because I've done it so many times - that, and they filled in the crack that my wheel got stuck in.

I think the advice mentioned in this thread is right on - find a descent you know well and keep doing it to hone your skills. It sounds like you know the technique - now you just need to practice it.

Donn12 · Feb 24, 2015

OP, I love road disc brakes and if I were in your shoes I would have a Carbon Tarmac disc so fast your head would spin. As it is I have a race frame with zipp 303s and I am getting a synapse carbon disc or something similar for bad weather and gravel rides.

multirider · Feb 24, 2015

tvad said:
^I think considering your mountain/hill riding, the 60/88mm wheels are too deep and could cause you to get blown around in windy descents...furthering your nervousness.

Enve SES 3.4 wheels might be a better alternative (or Zipp 202/303 Firecrest rims with DT Swiss/White Industries/Chris King hubs). I hesitate these days to mention anything about Zipp wheels because of the detractors on this website. HED Belgium C2 rims built with any of the above hubs would also have reasonably good aerodynamics and good weight for climbing wheels.

But, honestly, I think concentrating on your technique, and perhaps paying for six cycling coaching sessions would be more beneficial...if you can locate a good cycling coach in your area. Getting into a better aerodynamic position on the bike will reap more immediate benefits than will aero wheels (assuming you're not already riding in a good aerodynamic position).

I've been demonstrating a definite lack of critical thinking on this issue. And a continuous focus on "there must be some product I can buy that will help". Tvad and others are correct -- I ride in lots of cross winds due to the downslope off the foothills. I get blown around a bit on my "dumb" ENVE wheels (as opposed to the new models of "smart" ENVEs), so going to an even deeper rim profile might help in non-windy pursuit of the pack, but would likely cause even more anxiety in cross winds. I hate cross winds! Somewhat surprisingly, the ENVEs are better in cross winds than my Kysiriums which are much lower profile. the Kysiriums have bladed spokes and act like a piece of plywood in cross winds.

I'm very aware of aero positioning and try to get into a pretty tight tuck - knees and elbows included. I keep up pretty well on the straight descents. It's just all those turns! I don't like going faster than the speed at which I'm confident I can alter my line if need be. I was sailing down the frontage road to I-70 (main highway to the ski areas) last year and hit a fist-sized rock at about 45mph. It kind of blended into the roadway, saw it at the very last microsecond, hit it with the front and blew the tire, just about had a heart attack. Tire stayed on, bike slowed down uneventfully, but it was several minutes before my HR came back from the stratosphere. Whew! Tire had a 3" gash and I had to hitch a ride back to my vehicle.

Anyway, I definitely need to practice with people who are faster but willing to wait up after a couple of corners. That is hard to come by. The guys I ride with who are rapid descenders do not like to stop and wait. They like to rip it to the bottom.

I plan to check with some bike shops to see if they are aware of skills classes for road racers. And read through all the advice in this thread a few more times. Definitely need to practice.

Anyone have any recommendations for YouTube videos I could watch on the trainer? Videos that do NOT involve crashing on high speed descents? Those are pretty easy to find, but counter productive!

multirider · Feb 24, 2015

Donn12 said:
OP, I love road disc brakes and if I were in your shoes I would have a Carbon Tarmac disc so fast your head would spin. As it is I have a race frame with zipp 303s and I am getting a synapse carbon disc or something similar for bad weather and gravel rides.

You have tried road disc brakes? But you don't own them yet? Please clarify! :aureola:

I have ridden my CX disc brake bike on the road and love road disc -- it dramatically increases my confidence at speed. I've been looking at the Tarmac disc, but it is a lot of $$$ since my current SRM would not transfer over like it would on a new Cannondale. I've been thinking seriously that I'd like to get a Tarmac disc for 2016, but was recently offered a significant discount on a new Cannondale by my LBS.

That was the catalyst for this whole dilemma -- didn't want to pass up a great deal if it provided value that would help my racing. Particularly descending. Lighter frame and more comfortable ride were nice as well, but I latched on to the idea of Cannondale Speed Save on an EVO being the silver bullet for solving my descending problems.

Frankly, I think disc brakes would do more for my descending than EVO Speed Save -- much of my anxiety is related to feeling like I could not slow or stop fast enough with the mediocre braking on my Enve carbon wheels.

When I was a kid, I could not bring myself to skateboard. The lack of brakes (and, therefore, control) terrified me. Rollerblades weren't much better. It just didn't make sense to me to get going so fast that my only option was to hope I could weave around obstacles before crashing my brains out.

One of the reasons I can descend very rapidly on a mtb is the confidence that I can stop or at least slow enough to avoid the worst situations. I do not have that confidence on a road bike at 40+mph.

robt57 · Feb 24, 2015

General question about opinion re: disc road and long descents?

Is cable actuated better because you can't evaporate the cable with prolonged and extreme heat build up?

Playing a little devils advocate if no one minds [even if they do

]

tvad · Feb 25, 2015

multirider said:
When I was a kid, I could not bring myself to skateboard. The lack of brakes (and, therefore, control) terrified me. Rollerblades weren't much better. It just didn't make sense to me to get going so fast that my only option was to hope I could weave around obstacles before crashing my brains out.

Ha! Me too. Ice skated and played hockey as a kid. When Rollerblades came out, I lived in LA, so owning a pair seemed like good idea given my ice skating abilities. Then...I realized I couldn't stop on a dime like I could on hockey skates, and it freaked me out. Rollerblading didn't last long in my life...

If your Enve wheels don't inspire confidence, then I gently encourage you to look at some HED Belgium C2 wheels (or similar aluminum rims...Pacenti, etc.). Frankly, I think the HED Belgium wheels perform as well as my old Enve SES 3.4 wheels and the HEDs stop really well.

ziscwg · Feb 25, 2015

robt57 said:
General question about opinion re: disc road and long descents?

Is cable actuated better because you can't evaporate the cable with prolonged and extreme heat build up?

Playing a little devils advocate if no one minds [even if they do ]

No,
The fluid is one additional thing that helps remove heat. That's why it heats up and people are all concerned with it's boiling point.

With road disk, it will be even more important to have a good system on your bike. With mtb, people have been able to get away with mismatched things at times. I have yet to get on the new SRAM hydro discs, but I could not complain about the old "faulty" ones.

Donn12 · Feb 25, 2015

You have tried road disc brakes? But you don't own them yet? Please clarify!

Kinda...not really...I have disc brakes on mountain bikes, my CX bike and my fat bike. I recently switched my CX bike brakes to BB7s and I love them. I am fine with my normal road bike with zipp 303s and rim brakes but when it is wet outside I don't want to risk crashing my fancy bike (or getting hurt). I figured a synapse carbon would be great for gravel rides and road rides in bad weather. I descend like a real wimp and figure I need some help when I ride in the rain. I will probably go with BB7s or TRP brakes until campy finally gets around to producing hydro brakes. If I was not such a campy fan I would go with ultegra or dura ace and get their hydro brakes. My LBS raves about them.

robt57 · Feb 25, 2015

Donn12 said:
I will probably go with BB7s or TRP

I have a posted quite a few times about the BB7 VS TRP SLCs. Not sure if you may have seen my ramblings. In short my SL4 disc Roubiax came with BB7 and mainly due to my foot hitting and even catching on the rear caliper, off they came. Spyre SLCs went on as the solution and IMO are superior in every way.

Donn12 · Feb 25, 2015

robt57 said:
I have a posted quite a few times about the BB7 VS TRP SLCs. Not sure if you may have seen my ramblings. In short my SL4 disc Roubiax came with BB7 and mainly due to my foot hitting and even catching on the rear caliper, off they came. Spyre SLCs went on as the solution and IMO are superior in every way.

I think the TRPs will be my first choice based on all the things I have read but I may just use a bunch of existing stuff I have on this new frame when I get it. I m selling a couple of bikes so who knows!

ericm979 · Feb 25, 2015

multirider said:
much of my anxiety is related to feeling like I could not slow or stop fast enough with the mediocre braking on my Enve carbon wheels.

Maybe you should practice your technical descents on aluminium rims, with better braking.

But even with the best brakes you can't stop that fast on a road bicycle. We have small tire contact patches, a high CG and short wheelbase. If you have a sudden issue at speed you need to look for a way around it, not just stop. Avoidance also works when you're in a corner, while you can't brake hard in a turn until after you have gotten the bike mostly upright.

CoffeeBean2 · Mar 16, 2015

So, I finally got out on the EVO yesterday and it seems to me there is a discernible difference between the my SuperSix and the EVO. One caveat: I've been doing my winter training program since I last road the SuperSix so that may account for the difference.

First: no real discernible difference in descending - both are rock solid frames. The biggest difference, to me, was going uphill. As the review on BikeRadar stated - the EVO seems like it just wants to fly up hills. Again, this may be due to my increased fitness due to several weeks of winter training.

Second: the EVO seems to smooth out the vibrations a bit better than the SuperSix. I did one of my regular routes and it seemed I was experiencing less vibration from the little bumps, etc in the road.

All in all, I don't regret my purchase of the EVO. I may go race the CSU Oval Criterium this coming weekend to see how it feels during a race. I have no doubt it will be a great ride.

SwiftSolo · Mar 16, 2015

This may not yet be an option if you are racing, however, nothing has ever done more for my descending skills than precision brakes that react the same every time, wet or dry (Shimano hydro disc). Nothing did more damage to my descending skill/speed than the change to carbon rims, except maybe some ksyrium rims that would go into a speed wobble at about 40mph.

I'm now riding Enve 3.4 disc rims on a hi-mod synapse and have never been faster through the hairpins.

multirider said:
Posts like that are such a waste of electrons, bandwidth, and screen real estate. I don't understand why someone with that attitude would even come to the forums.

I posted a question about the weight of various groupsets in the Components category. One reply was something like "SRAM Red is the lightest, just get that." That strikes me as ridiculous. I don't take a "cost is no object" approach to cycling - components, wheels, bikes, helmets, clothes, or anything else. Every purchase decision has both a cost and a benefit component.

If I had started this thread with "I have an unstoppable need to buy a new bike and am going to buy one no matter what anyone says, but please give me your advice anyway", it might be reasonable to post "just go buy the bike". But my clearly expressed goal and theme throughout my responses has been to determine if there is >$1000 worth of benefit to replacing my standard Supersix with an EVO or >$2500 worth of benefit to upgrading to a Hi Mod EVO. Many of the replies have been on point and very helpful. I've tried to ignore the posts saying

because they are annoying.

I give careful consideration to how I spend my hard earned money. I have a family to support, vacations we'd like to take, and a retirement to fund. I enjoy cycling and have some nice stuff that I enjoy as part of cycling, but I cannot fathom a "cost is no object" approach to a hobby.

It has been extremely helpful to get the wake-up call from Tvad and TricrossRich and others that I would summarize as "same geometry but a tiny bit of flex isn't going to make you descend noticeably faster". And even the post about 300g is about 1/3 of a kg -- I was actually doing the math wrong with a result of expecting 9-12 seconds faster per mile climbing a 6% grade when the reality is the EVO would be about 1 second faster per mile. I appreciate TricrossRich pointing that out.

It has been kind of a splash (bucket?) of cold water to the face to have many people say "it's basically the same bike, it won't make you go faster".

As much as I find statements like

annoying when I am seeking objective, legitimate input before making what would be a pretty expensive decision, it was helpful when TricrossRich pointed out

and summarized with

I'd love to hear CoffeeBean2's experiences and feedback when you can ride your EVO Hi Mod!

At this point, I've decided to not buy a new SuperSix. I expect to get a lot of value for $1000 and it doesn't sound like replacing my current SuperSix with a SS EVO or SS EVO Hi Mod would have much benefit for my #1 goal of increased descending confidence and speed.

I did several searches for descending clinics and found a lot of web sites claiming to have the secret sauce for faster descending. Unfortunately, I haven't found any pearls of wisdom that were new to me. I know to start wide, brake before and not during, cut across the apex, outside pedal down, in the drops, look ahead, lean the bike more than turn the bars, etc. I do all that stuff, but I my head is full of thoughts of the unexpected -- front or rear tire washes out due to gravel in the turn or bumps or potholes or just too much speed, a blow out, a guy in front of me goes down, a car or motorcycle comes across the line from the oncoming lane, a lightning bolt strikes in front of me, or whatever. After numerous broken bones and a LOT of scraped off skin from motocross, I don't want to go down and get hurt. Ever again.

If anyone is tempted to respond with some flavor of "everybody crashes sometime, you should just quit riding if you are so worried about it", please don't -- again, that's just a waste of your time, my time, and everyone else's time.

I try to go as fast as those I'm with, initially got dropped badly, have improved significantly, but seem to lose a few feet or even a few meters in every turn at speeds above about 30-35mph. The gap adds up turn by turn, then I'm in the wind by myself pedaling hard between turns to catch back up, it almost works for a few turns, but I'm getting gassed as I watch everyone in front of me coasting, so I start losing hope and eventually losing sight of them. The anxiety that precedes each turn mentally drains me and then getting dropped really sucks the fun out of the ride.

I started looking at deeper wheels (mine are 45s, started thinking 60s would be more aero and help me stay with the group or catch back on). Came across multiple "it's not the bike, it's the engine" comments. So I'm thinking about a Wahoo Kick'r.

But mainly I'm thinking about how to descend more confidently. I'm pretty sure that confidence = speed. It certainly does in on descents in mountain bike racing. I'm not the fastest descender during mountain bike races, but I more hold my own. My motocross skills seem to translate pretty well on dirt/rocks/roots. But I don't have a lot of experience on 2 wheels on asphalt.

My web searches resulted in numerous spin classes and beginning cycling classes. Nothing that was even close to what I'm interested in. If anyone has recommendations for intermediate-to-advanced road bike descending skills classes (small group or individual) in the Denver area, I'd appreciate hearing about them!

Upgrade from Cannondale SuperSix non-EVO to C-dale SuperSix EVO

ericm979

TricrossRich

tvad

multirider

tvad

ericm979

CoffeeBean2

Donn12

multirider

multirider

robt57

tvad

ziscwg

Donn12

robt57

Donn12

ericm979

CoffeeBean2

SwiftSolo

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