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Rokh Hard

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
hey there!

so i got this awesome mech groupo on the F8, but it keeps throwing the chain. ive had it in the shop 3 times for adj, most recently today...and it keeps throwing the chain....doenst shift onto big ring under load or fast pedal....in fact will throw the chain.

thoughts?
 
Might be time to bring it to a new shop.

Some shops have old mechanics. The new generation of front derailleurs is not for those types that think they can just set it up like they have for years. This generation is very much like Shimano products now and it takes extra steps.

I can tell you one thing for sure; if you're dropping the chain to the outside, your mechanic is to blame. If the mechanic you go to can't do their job right, you need to go somewhere that will.
 
Discussion starter · #3 ·
the chain drops to the inside.


one mechanic set it up, so i suggested that another mech start from the beginning on the install. ive viewed several camp tech vids on youtube and sent to them. im thinking that the 2015 and/or campy is a bit precious in its parameters of setup....if this is the case then i dont really want precious....i want something that will take a whoopin and keeps turning.....like my ultegra.



Might be time to bring it to a new shop.

Some shops have old mechanics. The new generation of front derailleurs is not for those types that think they can just set it up like they have for years. This generation is very much like Shimano products now and it takes extra steps.

I can tell you one thing for sure; if you're dropping the chain to the outside, your mechanic is to blame. If the mechanic you go to can't do their job right, you need to go somewhere that will.
 
I have 2013 SR EPS so definitely different but I had the same issue. Mine had a small carbon peice come off the cage and without it my FD was a peice of garbage. Once they figured it out and reinstalled it it has been flawless. One of the things I have really liked about eps is that there are no adjustments. I am getting ready for a new rain/winter build and I am a little weary of mechanical shifters on it. Also my shop installed a campy chain catcher shortly after I bought the bike. The initial drops were me stupidly trying to shift front and rear at the same time
 
Check that the inner limit stop is set so the on the small/big combination the cage clears the chain by no more than 0.5mm. More than 0.5 mm will tend to put the chain off the inside. The 2015 chainrings seem like the shift gates are a little more aggressive to improve the shifting but this also makes them more susceptible to tossing the chain.

If that doesn't solve it make sure the FD is set up per the tech manual. If the derailleur is set too high it seems to take more over-travel to make it shift, and this could lead to throwing the chain. I have found that on the 2 I've done so far having the UT-FD020 setup gauge makes it much easier to setup, and on my personal bike I needed the FD-CE011 washer to make it shift consistently since the cable did contact the derailleur fixing point.
 
im thinking that the 2015 and/or campy is a bit precious in its parameters of setup....if this is the case then i dont really want precious.
There's nothing "precious" about anything Campy.

i want something that will take a whoopin and keeps turning
That's what Campy components do, if they're set up competently.
 
Discussion starter · #8 ·
BINGO!!!!!

tka won the prize on this one.


If that doesn't solve it make sure the FD is set up per the tech manual. If the derailleur is set too high it seems to take more over-travel to make it shift, and this could lead to throwing the chain. I have found that on the 2 I've done so far having the UT-FD020 setup gauge makes it much easier to setup, and on my personal bike I needed the FD-CE011 washer to make it shift consistently since the cable did contact the derailleur fixing point.

yep.

this afternoon i stopped by the shop to take her for a test run....flawless.....smooth and positive. could not make it throw the chain. works just like in all the vids i see. beauty. more will be revealed after i take her up the 2 tomorrow morning.

after speaking with the mech, turns out he set it up same/same.....well.....2015 is different and not same/same. rewind and follow the directions.....there is allot to be said for shop loyality, where everyone has a chance to correct and learn something new......yeah....the chain "skid plate" on the F8 is a little chewed up and would not have been had they followed the instructions and not their instinct. we are human. we make mistakes. its human to allow others to better themselves and correct their mistakes.

up the hill tomorrow. Grande Rosso rides.
 
It's nice that they admitted they did it wrong instead of paying attention. Hopefully they will not ever repeat their mistake again. Good to hear you're back up and running.

Now tell them to call gita bike and get you a new skid plate frame protector thing. They are sold separately and can be ordered. They owe it to you.
 
Discussion starter · #11 ·
I've had no problems with mine until the carbon cage snapped. Time to go back to chorus for the front even though it's a 2015 grouppo.
wow. your outside carbon piece broke?

ill ride the piss outta it until it does.....if it does.

up the hill tomorrow......means coming down the hill tomorrow. god damn is that F8 amazing at speed.
 
Discussion starter · #12 ·
front derailleur is acting up again. spent 5 hrs with a local campy tech and could not get it to shift properly. time for campy to get involved.....more will be revealed.
 
Discussion starter · #13 ·
....howdy gents.....here is a followup to my experience here....

https://forums.roadbikereview.com/c...s-wrenching/campagnolo-ultra-torque-problem-uncovered-147639-3.html#post4840928

if the linky doesnt work for you here is the rub......

ive got a story....not the one i was looking forward to telling...but alas this is it...i was hoping, sort of praying that i would not be looking at or posting on a thread like this but here it is....il keep it as tight and concise as i can.....but im attempting to wrap up 1.5months and +20hrs of time, dialogue and effort in a short(ish) read/post.


1.5 months ago i had my favorite bike shop and mech build me a brand spankin new 2015 pinarello F8 decked out in full campy 2015 super record groupo and campy shamal wheels.

ive been dreaming for the day that i could build and own a bike of this caliber.

in late feb i took possession of this beautiful machine.......my first test laps were in the safety of the rose bowl.....free of distractions. get familiar with the new systems, when less than 10mins into the ride the front derailleur drops the chain to the inside....shifting from the small ring to the big, drops the chain. no problem, its a simple adj issue....back to the bike shop i go.....simple....or so i thought.....

the next month (month of march) the bike has been in the shop more time than out on the road....a total of 4 times....same thing, drop the chain to the inside....take to shop, adj.....drop chain.....take to shop, adj, drop chain....wash, rinse, repeat. heck, they even rebuilt the whole thing at my request. love those guys at velo pasadena.

after all that back n forth, its still dropping the chain on the small to big chainring upshift. two weeks ago out of frustration and a willingness to find a solution, i call campagnolo usa in socal and i dan picks up the phone. i tell dan my problem. i ask dan, "can i bring it to you? im in LA". dan tells me hes out of town and to take it to the best man in LA who knows campy, "my guy in LA, he KNOWS campy ... eric at east west bikes."

the next day i take the bike to eric (who is 1hr and 15min drive one way in LA traffic) in fullerton/LA. we work on that front derailleur for 5hrs on sat. adj, ride, drop chain, adj, ride, drop chain....wash, rinse repeat. we even changed the bottom bracket out. eric is dumb founded. still no joy. eric asked to keep it another week so he can review with dan at campy usa. a week goes by, im calling eric who says no response from dan. near the end of that week, i call eric and say, "im coming to pick up the bike tomorrow and take it back to hrach to have them work on it", the next day dan from campagnolo usa calls and asks to keep it one more day to work on it, he wanted to put a gopro on it. still ever hopeful of a successful outcome as i really love the look and mystique of the product, i say no problem. that was two days ago.


yesterday i picked up the bike from eric at east west. i asked eric if he and dan got all the gopro vids and data they needed. eric said "we could not duplicate the problem"

wait....eric and i spent 5hrs the previous sat working on it, he saw for himself as i rode past him repeatedly in the parking lot, the chain slipping and dropping on the upshift....

"yeah, i see it, i got it" he says

so yesterday i go down to eric at east west bike to pick up the F8. i went to check the play in the UT bottom bracket.....a full 2+mm!!! i called eric over and showed him the play, no SLOP in the bottom bracket ultra torque setup....thats 2-3mm of lateral slop!!!!! he hands me his bike, same only not as much. (he has similar setup on a different bike)

you know when you get those "AAAAH HHHA!!! moments? that was it....and by the look on erics face he was either saying "oh sheet" or "holy sheet!!". whatever he saw, whatever he said to himself it was not good.


right, so the secret slop is now out of the bottom bracket bag "out of the box"......lets just say that eric and i didnt see eye to eye on the slop in the campy ultra torque bottom bracket.

i took the position that this the result of bad design and this or ANY slop is totally unacceptable, esp in a $3K world class group set....and it would not be to big of a suggestion so say that this slop is probably what is causing the front derailleur issues, for as the bottom bracket moves, so do the chain rings!!!!...and this all happens with NO cross chain. the chain is pretty much straight in line on the cassette in back, with the small chain ring in front.

eric didnt see any issue with this design, nor with the slop. he actually said "thats the way its designed" (which may be true) and went on to say "you are getting all worked up because i wont agree with you".....my jaw drops to the floor. this guy really believes that this amount of slop is acceptable, a sloppy bottom bracket is ok? its cool? thats amazing. actually what is getting me worked up is that this guy actually believes this, and is telling me this BS and has been working on my bike!!

hey, if someone walked in off the street and said:

"my chain keeps coming off the front and its getting stuck", the mech sees 2mm of slop in the bottom bracket, is he going to service it or say? "ah, its ok, i could not get it to drop....just ride it....heres a rubber glove to keep your fingers clean". (that last bit is an inside joke, as i kept coming back with greasy fingers, so he gave me a blue rubber glove to take on test rides with me. when i would come back i would show him my clean fingers and say "all clean!!!" and then whip out the greasy glove from my jersey pocket. we would chuckle)
Image




ever feel like yer being swindled?


so, yesterday picking up the F8, we discover the bottom bracket slop. ensues a little more banter back and forth after which that "AAAHHH HAAA!!" moments hits again....i realize that im swimming in a pool of blind faith without a flotation device, and im sinking. the campy koolaid, folks here are smokin campy crack, whatever you wanna call it....its in full effect and im not getting the benefit of a contact high. right then i knew it was game over and what was coming up ahead of me. take the campy hardware off my bike, too much nonsense, too much risk.

after about 5mins of back and forth on the matter, i walk the F8 out, laughing to myself, shaking my head in utter disbelief at the conversation i just had with a campagnolo referred "proshop" mechanic, campys best trouble shooting man in LA.
im simply dumbfounded. "we cannot duplicate to problem"....even though the week before this guy said "i see it, i got it" as i rode back and forth in the parking lot in front of him.
"we couldnt duplicate"....thats something id expect that from a GM mechanic but not what i would expect from a mechanic who represents the best mfg of high end road bike components in the world.

smells like BS to me. little tie fighters protecting the death star. feel the force luke.....keep walking towards the door and dont be seduced by the sexy campy koolaid. keep walking.

actually im disillusioned and saddened....i really wanted to be part of THAT club, THAT cult of campy....but the admission price is simply too high for me. i didnt spend $3K for a product that doenst work. i didnt spend $3K to troubleshoot, R&D the best components in the world. not my job man. i have not cultivated the blind loving faith of history with the company. not my job. not my problem. not my turn to hit the pipe. just say no.

ever feel like yer being swindled?



yesterday on the way home i called hrach owner of the bike shop velo pasadena who built the F8 for me. i give him the lowdown on whats going on....hrach says "bring it in and we will take care of you buddy" (i love hrach)

ever feel like yer being listen to and being taken care of?

today i swung by velo. hrach and i chat about the system, i show him the slop in the bottom bracket. we put the F8 on the stand to have a closer look......we fiddle with the slop and as it turns out eric from east west bikes in fullerton broke the front ergo lever shifter!!!! it will not shift!!! unbelievable. just simply amazing. hrach is visibly frustrated and asks me what i would like to do...by this point my disappointment has moved to anger, and i say....

"dump it. take all this crap off my bike......i dont want any of it on the F8 (including wheels) ..... hrach this is not my job, nor is it your job to design around, and hack a fix for something that doesnt work correctly from the factory. i cant and dont trust any of their products or service. take it off and put on shimano di2"......"ok buddy, we will do that, we will take care of you"

ever feel like yer being listen to and being taken care of?

so, what does this have to do with this thread/post?

john and i have talked. i think that he is on to something with his shims system and not use this compressible "washer" fix as supplied from the factory to hack a design flaw.

so why dont i get his shims and ride away into the sunset?

you know what.....if i spend $3K on a product i want it to work. and i want it to work as good, if not better than the maker of that product sells it to me as such. i dont want to have to purchase a off market hack fix and test to see if that does fix it (with all due respect, john is providing me with better service than campagnolo is and i didnt even buy anything from him) all in an effort to TRY and make a brand new product work, to work around a blatant design flaw....a fix from a guy that the mfg disregards? no. im not doing that. good on john for being in the solution mindset....me? im in the "i just wanna ride my bike and not fiddle with this BS" mindset.

so gents, thats my story. im sad that i will not be part of the cult, i was excitedly looking forward to having a machine that really stood out on club rides and the like.....but that campy koolaid is just to much for me to swallow, and now i have a different story to tell.

today im looking forward to a smooth di2 shifting and shimano consistency setup.

this has been very therapeutic, cathartic, and good for me, i hope if was good for you too.....carryon, live long, prosper and may the force be with yall.
Image



ps....forgot to mention.....the chainstay behind the small chain ring is totally chewed up as a result of this little bit of nonsense. the paint is hacked out all the way to the carbon stay. thats a total bummer. who pays for that fix?
 
Did you consider the explanation that was already offered in your other thread?
 
I said it before and I'll say it again, you have bad mechanics. And I don't care who says who is great. That's actually a red flag. This includes the shop you talk up and say is great, they are not great. They might be good people but they are bad mechanics, I said this when you first got your bike. There's only been one mechanic I've ever met in person who's lived up to his hype. 99% of the time he's an older hand that can work on older stuff but is set in his ways making him a bad mechanic in reality. Especially with the newer systems. I would like to have seen some pictures of this setup, I bet I could spot the problem(s) just by looking it over.

There's no way there will be any slop at all in that system if installed correctly. Obviously something was done wrong, and if it's the retaining clip as mentioned before... well that's just indicative of my point.

Sadly this is what happens when you rely on others in life. You don't own anything that you can't service. You're just holding on to it until it breaks once.

Edit:
Who pays for your mangled frame? The shop that first installed the Campy wrong, the shop that hopefully knows how to install Di2. With the instructions that Shimano provides though, really anyone should be able to handle it. They're the ones. You really like them though so I guess it's you that pays for it.
 
By the way, what will happen to your "Batteries are for vibrators" signature line now? :aureola:

As an aside, I have never heard of the chain being dropped on the inside on an upshift to the larger ring. That one boggles my mind to be honest.
 
Discussion starter · #18 · (Edited)
By the way, what will happen to your "Batteries are for vibrators" signature line now? :aureola:

well....i suppose....if the di2 works out and im over-joyed with ecstasy ..... i suppose my sig might say

"Batteries are for Orgasms" ;)

As an aside, I have never heard of the chain being dropped on the inside on an upshift to the larger ring. That one boggles my mind to be honest.
the ultegra system on my pinarello rokh dropped a few times, to the inside to the upshift, but that was a simple fix with a front derailleur adj. (sans the drama) never did it again. the thing just works every time.

campagnolo's beauty is in it's aesthetic, its visual design....stuff sure is beautiful and pleasing to look at....by contrast shimanos beauty is in the ease, simplicity and consistency in which it works. it gets the job done and well.


Gears n Chicks -

campagnolo - kinda like that gorgeous girlfriend (or boyfriend) we all once had.....she sure is hot and everyone looks at her, all yer friends want a date with her....but she was a high maintenance bich, who expects that you spend money on her, pay her way all the time, and couldnt suck a down tube for sheet.

shimano - kinda like that girlfriend (or boyfriend) we all once had....she aint all that pretty, your friends would acknowledge her, she pays her own way and comes around after midnight....but christ could she could take a beating up the backside, smile and say "more please daddy" and rokh yer gears the rest of the ride.

im looking forward to that "Shimano Girl" .... who cums with her own batteries. digit. ;)
 
campagnolo - kinda like that gorgeous girlfriend (or boyfriend) we all once had.....she sure is hot and everyone looks at her, all yer friends want a date with her....but she was a high maintenance bich, who expects that you spend money on her, pay her way all the time, and couldnt suck a down tube for sheet.
Sorry, but that's BS, pure and simple. Like I said, I understand your frustration, but you're dead wrong extrapolating your personal experience into a generalization about Campagnolo gear. I am riding a 2009 Campagnolo Super Record, with no issues of any kind for six years now. Chain typically lasts 6k miles, SR cassette about twice that, and I'm still on my first cables. As I have said elsewhere, I'm not exactly sure when the last time was I adjusted anything other than the brakes to compensate for wear of the pads. I am certain I haven't touched my FD adjustment in the last two years, at least. The RD I only adjust when changing wheels: two clicks left from the Zipp to the Campy Shamal, or vice versa. As far as reliability, precision, and low-to-no maintenance is concerned, it simply cannot get any better than this, with any group I ever heard of, electric or mechanical.

I specifically remember my first ride outdoors this year, a couple of weeks ago, when, towards the end of the ride, I suddenly became aware of that well-nigh dream-like quality with which my group shifts. It almost feels like all I need to do is think of shifting gears, and the shift happens. Sure, it turns out that I really do tap my thumb paddles or move the shift levers, but all of this is completely automatic and precise, every single time, with nothing but perhaps a soft "clack" from the cassette on the upshifts (downshifts are silent) and the gentle clicking of the shifters themselves. I really do not have the faintest idea what those guys with their electric groups could possibly be talking about when they rave about the "superior quality" of their shifting. I simply cannot see how you would improve on what I already have.
 
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