The DA 9000-9100 Saga and how we got it perfect

Belisarius · Aug 6, 2017

It all started in 2014 when receiving my new Italian DA 9001 setup. It never worked- grinded, lagged after a week, and dropped gears under torque. Remember winning a Fondo race only because I used the 11-17th cogs, all but the 18-19-20 or 'spider' plastic core ones. Then took it in the LBS and abandoned it there. We had spent 20 hrs to get it working, turns out, three more months of back and forth with Shimano needed until ditching their parts and warranty terms.

The DA 11 speed Shimano had three major flaws.

1, the chain- wide, 5.8mm, wobbly, ok for 10 speed, atrocious for 11 speed spacing. Shimano recognized the grinding noise and released a communique stating that it will wear itself in place ! At 5.8mm width, it is quite nice for a 10 speed, where it will operate quietly and well for 2,500 kms. But, I could not get two days of it on the 11 speed.

2- the PTFE polymer cable frays the polymer on serious riding- the average of 2 weeks or 400-800 kms riding is correct. Once the polymer frayed, it added extra resistance in the system. Eventually, as you all know, Shimano removed it. Online pictures were obvious.

3- The DA cassette, 9000 9001 and R9100, the worse engineered cassette in the history of cycling. It cracks, bends under torque (above the plastic labelled 'carbon core'). Shimano threatened the accounts of store owners whom, they told me, confronted the core as PLASTIC and unrelated to carbon. A plastic prone to cracking with its 1- then 2- retaining rivets! See online pics... Ultegra casette same effect barring it using 2 cogs on plastic, not 3 like DA so 10% less odds of bad bends.

After three months and countless overhauls on my new bike, 2014, the LBS expert knew he had a problem- all DA bikes had the same problem, including their Ultegra 7900s. But only when loading me on a trainer and stayed 1.5 hours after closure to look at it with lights etc, he said "Stop! It will NEVER WORK!" He saw the chain bending the cassette, the lagging shifts, the chain touching adjacent cogs and false engaging, all things unlikely to experience below 28km hrs (gear ratios).

He had an inside with Shimano NA. He had formed a very Sr Executive, and he spend many hours on VTCs. But even that execs hands were tied through Shimano Japan.

Reported it to known Cycling magazines editors whom had praised DA, but tested it for a few days only. Coupled with international feedback from real world users, the magazine contacted Shimano over and over again. This got a very stern threat to my LBS owner of having his account suspended- be it that man had nothing to do with my reporting to editors. Remember one conversation when Shimano was arguing its warranty terms and Barry answering "But he just won a race and a time trial on a SRAM/CAMPY hybrid yet DA has not worked a day in months!" Shimano techs even used a laser to measure my bike mold or chainstay geometry, but hey, it was occurring on every pro grade bike assembled in the store. They kept repeating the "never seen this before" line. Cue came with a Pro mobile Bike mechanic truck, whom revealed that pros or cyclists with accounts adopted hybrid solutions.

THE FINDING

Shimano 11 speed was and is badly engineered. What worked for 10 speeds, and lower tolerances, exposed some bad R&D and terrible tolerances. The chain is too wide, and, metallurgically, poor quality vs the 5.5 mm SRAM (3500 kms) or 5.3 mm Campy (6000-10000 kms). The cassette should have never left the factory, but was sold as "light". Low speeds and casual efforts might barely reveal minor nuisances. Elite or Pro level speeds, and the system is critically red: Cables, Cassettes and Chain. Reported it online, and relevant forums. At some point a well known Bike journal contacted again Shimano and accidentally shared my bike pic- which is how Shimano traced it to my LBS. Meanwhile, people kept sending in broken cassettes, posting online shipping shifters back and forth. My system was redone 3-4 times? Worse, people whom bought off the shelf parts, they had no LBS and warranty to go through...

SOLUTION

Desperate, LBS owner (RIP Barry) first tried a Campy chain- (2014 articles on compatibility were scarce) no more grinding, 5.3 vs 5.8mm, superb traction BUT, the cassette still dropped the chain under torque. And shifts were slow.

Cable- each time Barry redid the bike, even at 2 weeks interval, he noticed the PTFE fraying in the lever and under the bottom bracket. He tried a non PTFE Shimano cable, but it just frayed and bent. We replaced the cable with an unopened Gore cable set I had - which lasted 7,000 kms and is still good today though I replaced it with Yokozuna during a routine maintenance job. Gore also had a PTFE coating but, turns out, would last thousands of kms vs Shimano PTFE two weeks. When done, i simply stripped the PTFE from the gores and still good.

Cassette issue was serious. Mid 2014 online posts and accounts had pictures of broken DA cassettes, and Shimano resolving it with 2 retaining rivets per arm, vs one- so they would break twice slower, weeks not days. We replaced the DA cassette with SRAM XG-1190, a pro trick NDAs prevent pros from disclosing at the TDF, and now prevented by regular inspections to ensure they comply with their kit. And why they still breakdown, as per 4k TDF mechanic videos end of day.

RESULT 2014-2017

2km/hr higher average speeds below 30km/hr and 1-1.5km/hr 35+. With XG-1190, Campy chain, Gore cable, I could finally pull elite times and unparalleled reliability, hindered occasionally by the DA rear mech off slight hesitations at times. However, once seated the Campy chain delivers a superb feel. Two bikes, same setup. The effects were visible at high speed, esp 30Km/hr and higher, and lots of mileage, 1500+ per month.

ENTER R9100 RD

2017, last week, I took it to the next level with the new DA R9100 rear mech. Shimano used Mountain tech and simplified it. My new LBS, different city, noticed that it is engineered as Shimano only, Guide Wheel wide, Shimano DA only compatible. 15 min of filing it, fits perfectly a Campy R11.

RESULTS

1.5 km/hr gain sub 27km/hr and 0.5 to 1km/hr above 30 from prev gains. Faster accelerations. SRAM staccato type gear changes, Shimano lever speed and changes and Campy insane energy transfer and feel per gear. In many ways, better than EPS, Better than SRAM Red and Campy SR 11. All superlative to any DA setup.

The R9100 Rear Mech is truly nicer, brings the Campy chain right under the XG-1190 cassette, and centers it perfectly while eliminating vibrations. Campy, being 5.3 mm, had to travel more and find the sweetspot on its narrower links during a change with the 9000 DA Rear mech- for many, imperceptibly so. But it shifts not sit and center perfectly no matter my 39/53 with 11-25 combos.

Why Yoko? Gore no longer makes cables. Yokos, even at the 6,000 km mark, you examine it, no plastic deformation. Jag Wire? 2 DAYS RIDING it was bent. Shimano Cables? Never again.. 400 or 10,000 kms, lemme see...

Each time I pass riders, their astonished reaction says it all. The system is that quiet, Veloflex tubulars noisier than the system, changes often imperceptible, and 25 to 17 all you get is a Toc Toc Toc Toc miliseconds apart.

If I was to redo my purchase, I would have gone Campy. Too late for that though. But Campy also redesigned its Carbon fibre mechs two years ago, following TDF feedback of too much flex. So could have had issues as well, plus they are quite fragile.

Unfortunately my LBS owner died suddenly last year of a heart attack. I know he would have liked the result with the new DA 9100 mech and filed wheel to Campy chain spec, but maybe he still is around guiding us. Yesterday I tried this system in 30 km pouring rain, flawless.

SRAM Red 22 chains also works and logged 4,000 kms on my secondary bike. BUT at 5.5 mm wide it pings a lower cog once, twice a ride, and it is a bit wobbly (though way less than Shimano) pass 2,000 kms. It is good, but Campy is just exceptional.

In the pics below, the cassette, which i tried to replace, is supposedly like new. 14,000kms. This Campy chain, 50% life at 4,000 kms. Use a special oil though. The two business cards, thick, where added to demonstrate the campy clearance from adjacent cogs. The new rear mech does not compensate the inherent DA Cassette and chain tolerance issues. In the end, unless Shimano makes a better chain, of superior metallurgy - like yokozuna does with cables- people will have nice shifting but bad rattles and unexpected chain drops under load. Not the least, shorter chain life and easily 1.5-2km/hr less average speed, particularly on circuits requiring frequent gear changes or glancing down to figure what is going on.

The new 9100 upper Guide Wheel fits the wide Shimano chains, but sticks to SRAM and jams on any Campy. Experimented two days with an older DA GW, with shallower teeth- no issues. Meanwhile I examined the 9100 GW and decided to file it, which took 15 minutes, in 5 metal file strokes per side, and a fine grit final filing. When replaced, very good Campy positioning became exceptional: the 9100 GW and its taller teeth has a more pronounced swing. Its deeper grooves and perfect insertion inside the Campy links also absorb more chain vibrations, which makes for the quietest system I ever experienced without soaking the chain in oil. Whatever tooth that was not well filed, after 100kms riding the wheel is machined to Campy specs.

The left cable is a Yoko with 6,000 kms- which I removed as the 9100 RD required more length to decrease tension. On the right, my original Gores after 7,000 kms, still good today. As a reminder, I averaged two weeks out of the Shimano DA cables on the 9001 STI

The grass and sunny pics taken in 2014, different paint then, same cassette.

The secret to the SRAM XG-1190: the monoblock alloy construction. As you would expect the upper cogs do resonate a bit. Experimented with Silicone as a way to reduce resonance and it works. The pic is of a spare new 11-28 cassette. Will add a known sports vibration damper between the 28 back-end spokes, fix it and will quiet the high cogs even further.

Cinelli 82220 · Aug 10, 2017

Belisarius said:
2km/hr higher average speeds below 30km/hr and 1-1.5km/hr 35+....1.5 km/hr gain sub 27km/hr and 0.5 to 1km/hr above 30 from prev gains

As tested in the Specialized wind tunnel?

Because this is the sort of thing they write.

Belisarius · Aug 10, 2017

No, as tested by someone doing thousands of Kms per month in recurring conditions, where every marginal gain- like the 0.5Km/hr average between wearing the Spec Prevail vs the Spec Evade - matters. It is as real as is the difference from those in top shape vs those too slow to comprehend these marginal gains. Those 3 watts 30-40 seconds/hr Specialized claims? At 38km/hr that is 600m per minute or 400m gained per hour, or 800m in two hours in a peloton. Of course if you go with crosswinds, solo, the moment you even turn your head or the Prevail, though exceptional, feels like an airbrake and the gains with the Evade are more significant nearing 1km hr faster average. So yes, between a flawless system that works and a buggy one that slows you down, the differences are that easy to compute, save and compare on Garmin or Strava ride after ride after ride. You do not need specialized to tell you how fast you are, do you? Small trivia: the Columbus Genius in the pics is the flagship Cinelli and they used to make the Colnago flagships nearby in Milan until very recently. They also made Eddy Merckx's frames, including the Mexico City record museum piece.

Marc · Aug 10, 2017

This clearly reads like your problem isn't Shimano or D/A...it is your bike shop.

No Time Toulouse · Aug 12, 2017

Or, quite possibly, whatever translator you are using. The OP's first language is obviously NOT English, and many parts of this screed made no sense (for instsance, how does a cassette "bend"?). Also, it seems that he has an 'axe to grind', maybe even a reputation to besmirch. Only person with an agenda comes here, opens a new account, then posts an exceedingly long diatribe with numerous pictures AND remains to be combative about it.

To the OP: please, give us some background, keep the info short and readable, and edit your posts so that they are not long tomes with unnecessary information. Nobody here has a clue as to what your real issue is, or what it means to us, or what we can learn from it. Your post is a jumbled 'data dump' of info nobody was expecting, or even needed. I regret the 5 minutes I wasted on trying to make any sense out of it.

Otherwise, tl;dr

Belisarius · Aug 10, 2017

If I resided in one location, your argument might have a say. But as i had residence in two different states, and went through MANY cities and bike shops -ALL SAYING THE SAME, you missed the argument. I clearly stated bike shop owners- SEVERAL, or plural. "Shimano threatened the accounts of store owners whom, they told me, confronted the core as PLASTIC and unrelated to carbon." In ANY city where a Pro shop mechanic sees my bike they ask me HOW I figured out a solution. Some knew the problem, just never resolved it, repeating ad nauseam the Shimano return. Unless you assume some mass conspiracy had people from several continents write at Dura Ace 9000 11 speed cassette- rubish product design - Weight Weenies and all those similar titled videos. However, if you are a slow rider indeed you do not grasp the technical items myself and so many other posted here. Let me see- snapping cables? Grinding? Each have a plethora of DA related forums. When meeting mobile repair truck in City B- no connection with my bike shop in City A- telling me the same thing and pointing me to a solution do you think I woke up one day dreaming to substitute the crappy DA cassette with the 500$ SRAM and bypassing the DA 3 yr warranty? LMAO But as myself and tons of other have done, with success, it only matters for those pushing these things 95-110 RPM, not commuting at 80 RPM. And, to further highlight your ignorance- when Shimano came forth to admit the chain grinding in its ridiculous 2014 Press release, saying that "it will wear itself and seat within the cogs" do you think that was my LBS? LMAO. Or cycling editors calling them back for DA problems, crashes and so on, my LBS?

Nope, that was DA WORDLWIDE. It got so bad that they started sending reps at major events to police the teams they where sponsoring to prevent publicity embarrassing swaps. They doubled the pins in 2014 (CRASHES) and got one of the FIRST production units shipped to NA..and lasted me 2 weeks and removed it as dangerous for the last time. Never crashed as I read the reports and NEVER powered through 17T and above, slowing down to commute speed.

They also just REMOVED THE PTFE. Cables continues snapping.. So when you reply to an argument- in line with so many DA related entries- with "Must be your LBS", no matter how many bikes I had mounted, not all one location, just show technical ignorance of both argument and the problems described. And very slow riding to realize that 5.8mm DA DOES NOT fit on ANY 11 speed mechanism, esp on 53-39 which forces the specs to more extreme angles. But, 5.5 SRAM just makes it, and 5.3 Campy is flawless. Seen the pics? Is there a problem with either math or visuals? Have you actually squeezed by hand the DA? Do you know the higher cogs BEND under hand PSI? LMAO. of course if fingers do that, hundreds of watts totally Pisa it, if that makes sense. Again, take a Campy cassette. Squeeze. SRAM, Squeeze. Nothing.. Then DA. It bends... When that happens 30-60km/hr, pray..

Look at the garbage below, and understand the Lada vs Ferrari difference with the SRAM or Campy Cassettes/Chains. kms/hr difference in speed.

ogre · Aug 10, 2017

You sound like our POTUS, except it's not within 144 characters.

Belisarius · Aug 10, 2017

Am not American, and the only narcissism is yours-- lacking the critical thinking ability to respond to an argument but with trivial unrelated cheap shots AND ad hominem fallacies. Finished university? It is the equivalent of highschool/college in countries with advances education ratings, minus the Ivy Leagues. Have a technical rebuttal?

MMsRepBike · Aug 10, 2017

I think you're hanger's bent.

I'll see myself out.

Belisarius · Aug 10, 2017

It is actually flush, and this one has 3996 kms as of today. Prev one, on the older DA 9000 rear mech, lasted me 10,300 kms before snapping after a climb, hence the little paint stains on my frame. Took three spokes as well. What happened is that in 2014 Barry used all his 42 years of experience (he also raced and adjusted Eddie Merck's bike when he came to Montreal in the 1970s). Redid my bike as many times as Shimano asked, trying various hanger configurations. That was twice a month, six times total. Each time he readjusted the drop, minute amounts, but this stresses these things and it broke at 10,300 kms, a month to the day after he died, and 4,000kms since prev adjustment.

This hangar is perfectly flush, and re-adjusted with the 9100 install. Even if it slides negative over 2,000 kms, it should not affect shifting. As a precaution, have a spare and will replace it at 10k mark. As it is this system is perfect. Cannot hear it, can barely feel it when shifting.

What I do not know after 300kms is how the new R9100 stresses the Hangar. So far it appears very well engineered and its torque is far less on the hangar.

Notvintage · Aug 10, 2017

I've not nothing to add but Shimano stuff seems mediocre at best. Also, it's odd really, but I work with a lot of other cyclists and there has been a few new Ultegra cranks arms that have broken. I was surprised to see this. I've rode Campy for over 30 years and never heard of a fractured crank arm. Good fishing gear but weak cycling gear. Perhaps the Japanese "all is disposable" mentality carries over to cassettes and cranks?

Belisarius · Aug 10, 2017

Barry, RIP, still had a 9 speed 30 yr old Campy SR setup that he rode thousands of Kms yearly. Your comment is an easy one to answer. The DA debacle proved that, in its quest to 'compete' in the 11 speed offering, Shimano offered 'light' and 'cheap' vs 'Light and Strong' as SRAM and Campy do. It engineered the cassette with plastic to shave weight, hallowed the chain which was too wide and metallurgically weak, and tried to cheat with the PTFE narrower cable.

BUT, and Barry told me that himself, even Campy had its bad moments. In 2014 when he and other shops were discovering that no 11 Shimano DA 11 speed worked well at elite power, Campy SR 11 had problems with the carbon fibre based mechs- and changed them after TDF 2014 and mainstreamed them in 2015. Pro's complained of RD cage fle and a brittle FD, which Campy investigated and admitted to. Poor local elite athlete pushing these after spending 4,000$ on SR 11 and getting the soft ones! This quest to lower weights often introduced "Cheap" in the equation. As they say, Strong, Light, Cheap, pick two. Carbon fibre and plastic are not the answer to everything.

That aside, the Hollowtech is supposedly very robust, with variations from DA to Ultegra to 105. So breaking crank arms is BAD and dangerous if riding! Reminds me of Honda, blowing pistons and billions of recalls. Anyway, what will happen is Shimano will initially ask LBS if the 'torqued' appropriately, then deny that there is a problem, then threaten account holders if they post publicly, and it is people like you and pictures that even reveal the issue... yeppers Ultegra crank failure - BikeRadar Forum Dura Ace too. wow

MR_GRUMPY · Aug 10, 2017

What is a "Fondo race"????.....I know what a Fondo is, and I know what a race is. Is a Fondo race something like a "Century race"??????.....Just asking.

Belisarius · Aug 11, 2017

Fair question. The Italian Federation defines it as 75 miles 120kms, chip from start to finish and optionally, time trial portion. Licensed riders often participate and even pro's occasionally. In an ideal world you have great roads and proper escorts, sweep, allowing you to push unhindered by traffic. In practice, some I did ended up at the front with 2-3 people, having to stop at every intersection. The best ones, especially in Italy, are professionally managed and planned.

Cinelli 82220 · Aug 11, 2017

I don't know anyone who has had this many problems with Dura Ace.. I do know two shops who have built lots of 9070 bikes with few if any problems.
I've used it since 2013 with no problem. I use a 6800 cassette and 9000 chain.
Next bike will be 9150.

"No 2014 Dura Ace worked at elite power"

LOL that must be why Campagnolo cleaned up at all the latest Tours de France.

Belisarius · Aug 11, 2017

Interesting, as I have not known anyone pushing these not to have a problem. However, do note you used the 6800, which I think is all metal. As of 2016, three different shops told me receiving NO MORE plastic core DA/Ultegra type cassettes. The new DA is still plastic core (and I refused my warranty one from Shimano), but Ultegra is again all metal. So you mention the last metal cassette made by Shimano, as between 2013 and end 2016 it was all plastic core U and DA.

Team Sky's secret is a ruthless adoption of marginal gains- the same techniques that give me 40% wear chain at 4,000kms (Campy), and articles on this topic abound. But your argument is irrelevant. Let us see.. TDF pack, which gears do they run? High or Low? LOW- anything flat or descent likely a 39/53 with 11-13?... Where is the DA problem? THE HIGH GEARS. 18, 19 and above. Seen the HD TDF mechanic videos? How often they change chains and cassettes? To the risk of sounding boring, almost every 2-3 stages and, some case, after a major stage?

So why they ditched the PTFE cable and plastic core in Ultegra cassettes? Because the tsunami of returns from serious riders...DA will soon follow suit.

So your answer has no rebuttal power against what is said above. Ask Chris Froome to pay and use his kit like every other non pro elite, and he will be through with it in 3 weeks. But a new Shimano DA chain will work well for 200kms. 300?? Barely, but reasonably IN LOW GEARS at high speed. Hence why normal elites got 2-3 weeks out of them. No free chain swaps every two nights.

Have you ever seen a car on the road with a 'bent' wheel, distinctively rotating in and out? So the crappy Shimano tech (chain), the chain's effective width is not 5.8, but more like 6 as it twists and vibrate longitudinally as well. Got quite a few i can att a shot for you. But the first 5.3mm Campy revealed what a Ferrari difference is like. Difference is way more than Ultegra vs DA chain, it thrashes them out of functional existence. I do not know what chains is Team Sky running (there are custom Shimano or Campy builds with titanium links etc) but I do know that any Campy on any drivetrain (esp SRAM and Campy) runs absolutely superior, quieter, and stronger, shifts better, does not loosen up and maybe you begin feeling something at 4,000 km. And unless you try look at it and see that metal looking crisp new after thousands of kms, vs matted, corroding Shimano ones, you do not get it. Will send you a pic tomorrow.

Same for cassettes: Campy ones are modular, but metallurgically superior (think Porsche BMW Merc alloy vs Honda). Hence why many Campy users claiming 10 or 20 years for original SR Campy. SRAM was lower grade, but this monoblock dome 1190 is indeed superior to their previous technology. No wear on mine and I crossed the 15,000km mark this week. Do not remember a single Shimano, even 10 speed, to last so well and transfer the energy as a single entity, no interplay.. Could pinch and the U and DA High gears bending by squeezing them...

You edited the post. All top Cinellis are Columbuses. Arguably the best makers in Italy. Though Colnago picked up with their own design, and Bianchi also seems to be doing well.

Cinelli 82220 · Aug 12, 2017

Belisarius said:
You edited the post. All top Cinellis are Columbuses. Arguably the best makers in Italy.

Edited because it was going off topic. Sky use DA chains. I've seen their mechanics working and have an ex team bike.
Cinelli is good. They use Columbus now because they are owned by the same company as Columbus. They are using a few subcontractors. Bertoletti builds the XCR, or did.
Old Cinelli brochures show them using a variety of tubing.
Supercorsa frames could be ordered with Reynolds 531 or Columbus SL. They often came with 531 main triangles and Columbus forks and stays.

Belisarius · Aug 11, 2017

Some of my chains, all well maintained, Shimanos and ONE Campy in the pic, half life at thousands of kms. Would you like to guess which one it is?

Belisarius · Aug 12, 2017

You are still not answering the argument. It does not matter if they us DA or non DA chains, above 30km/hr they never use the high gears right? Gear ratio makes it impossible. This is where DA fails miserably, as you increase the angle with the front chainrings as you move chain further up, nothing you or I do or say changes the physics and LARGE width (5.8-6mm) and poor qualities of the DA are amplified. Grinds rubs and catches. Flexes, vibrates and resonates. Casette bends. For climbs, the pros then customize exotic front chain ring sizes and ride specific high gears, and change again for flats or descents, and the moment they go again above 27km/hr they NEVER use those portions of the rubbish plastic cassette core (18t+). Ratios right? Then, they get all DA parts replaced even though new.

What myself and other described occurs on any DA mount bike, and as you saw my chain pics, had no qualms using Shimano as long as I could until someone mounted Campy for the first time on my system. No matter the bike though, I could only ride DA well if at fast peloton pace, not training pace up and down the gears. Catches, drops! Chain too wide. Casette too soft 18t+. Seeen pics right? And had to redo the bike every two weeks, to no avail. 20,000 kms on my hybrid system and no issues, you get the point.

Every pro shop will tell you the same: they will only explain into detail if the owner complains. But most people ride COMPACT+DA too slowly to realize the limits.

In the end, as much as Columbus makes terrific composite High Modulus with Strength carbon frames (perhaps topped now only by the top Bianchi), so does Campy make the best cycling metallurgy, close second being SRAM 1190. You have two choices- try and experiment, and if I am wrong, send me the store name and I pay your bill. When proven correct, just pay it forward.

Belisarius · Aug 12, 2017

So you had trouble understanding that DA actually works perfectly with Yoko/Gore cables, SRAM XG-1190 and Campy/SRAM chain? Whenever someone responds to an argument with ad hominem (tr: personal attacks) it is usually caused by ignorance, absent critical thinking, narcissistic jealousy or a combination of all. Forum age does not guarantee either cogency or smarts.

Let’s see. I run DA-9001 shifters; DA-9000 crankset; DA-R9100 rear mech on one bike, and plenty or more on my other road bike and TT. Headline is “Dura Ace.. saga.. perfect.” What is your major malfunction got a problem with that?

More facts:

- Shimano ditched the PTFE cable after 4 summers. Problem with that? Take it with Shimano!
- Shimano ditched the DA-9000 STi levers and came up with DA-9001. Issues? Internal routing and PTFE tear. Problems with that? Take it with Shimano.
- Shimano admitted to the grinding and space issue ref chain, and released press statements in 2014. Problem with that? Take it with Shimano.
- Shimano has redesigned, though poorly, DA chains every year since 2014. Problem with that? Take it with Shimano.
- Shimano ditched the DA-9000 cassette single rivet to two rivets. Cause? Failures. Problems with that? Take it with Shimano.
- Shimano ditched the Dual rivet/plastic core Ultegra cluster to all metal now. After 3 summers. Problems with that? Take it with Shimano.
- Shimano ditched the DA-9000 rear mech for a compact a la Campy/Sram MBT inspired DA-R9100. Problem with that? Take it with Shimano?
- Shimano WILL ditch the plastic core in DA cassette, sooner than you might think. At pro speed plastic core does not matter- it is HIGh gears anyway, and they use chains at 50% life and rapid cassette changes (e.g. Tea Sky).

Are these short enough? These are the highest frequency overhauls in a short timeframe in the history of mech. Sure 10 speeds and less Campy owners used DA aces (faster shifting as a former Eddy Mercks tech told me today) but hey, unsure if you have the patience to read.

Neither myself nor any the bike shops I drop in for occasional service had that effect on Shimano. Took lots of people, all continents, riders, mechanics, non-stop returns and many such as those whom posted here to have THAT overhaul effect on Shimano. We first heard of the DA issues .... HERE! Did you also go about insulting those forum members?

"Only person with an agenda comes here..." Really Comrade Kim? How about being busy cycling or abroad with tours of duty in combat zones, perhaps posting here was not a priority. There was an agenda though: making sure I collected 3 yrs worth of data on three bikes, DONE, and after a key LBS owner passed away and store sold, no more concerns with Shimano account.

Perhaps you drank too much cool-aid, but this argument, your figurative and literal speed are too slow to grasp the mechanics at play. If you have an actual rebuttal, e.g. prove somehow that that 5.8mm Shimano DA chain DOES NOT touch and grind, do so. Until then, educate yourself, read and learn from many countless testimonies Here and countless places Dura Ace 9000 11 speed cassette- rubish product design - Weight Weenies

BTW Saga stands for "long and complicated story" which was an entire 2014 summer and several shops trying to tune up functional DA mounts, for me and others. 90% resolved in 2014, and 100% in 2017...

One should not engage above their class. Axes, grinds and more retarded comments really weaken a position and credibility. Welcome a technical rebuttal, question, but random insults are too funny.

No Time Toulouse · Aug 13, 2017

Belisarius said:
So you had trouble understanding that DA actually works perfectly with Yoko/Gore cables, SRAM XG-1190 and Campy/SRAM chain? Whenever someone responds to an argument with ad hominem (tr: personal attacks) it is usually caused by ignorance, absent critical thinking, narcissistic jealousy or a combination of all. Forum age does not guarantee either cogency or smarts.

Let’s see. I run DA-9001 shifters; DA-9000 crankset; DA-R9100 rear mech on one bike, and plenty or more on my other road bike and TT. Headline is “Dura Ace.. saga.. perfect.” What is your major malfunction got a problem with that?

More facts:

- Shimano ditched the PTFE cable after 4 summers. Problem with that? Take it with Shimano!
- Shimano ditched the DA-9000 STi levers and came up with DA-9001. Issues? Internal routing and PTFE tear. Problems with that? Take it with Shimano.
- Shimano admitted to the grinding and space issue ref chain, and released press statements in 2014. Problem with that? Take it with Shimano.
- Shimano has redesigned, though poorly, DA chains every year since 2014. Problem with that? Take it with Shimano.
- Shimano ditched the DA-9000 cassette single rivet to two rivets. Cause? Failures. Problems with that? Take it with Shimano.
- Shimano ditched the Dual rivet/plastic core Ultegra cluster to all metal now. After 3 summers. Problems with that? Take it with Shimano.
- Shimano ditched the DA-9000 rear mech for a compact a la Campy/Sram MBT inspired DA-R9100. Problem with that? Take it with Shimano?
- Shimano WILL ditch the plastic core in DA cassette, sooner than you might think. At pro speed plastic core does not matter- it is HIGh gears anyway, and they use chains at 50% life and rapid cassette changes (e.g. Tea Sky).

Are these short enough? These are the highest frequency overhauls in a short timeframe in the history of mech. Sure 10 speeds and less Campy owners used DA aces (faster shifting as a former Eddy Mercks tech told me today) but hey, unsure if you have the patience to read.

Neither myself nor any the bike shops I drop in for occasional service had that effect on Shimano. Took lots of people, all continents, riders, mechanics, non-stop returns and many such as those whom posted here to have THAT overhaul effect on Shimano. We first heard of the DA issues .... HERE! Did you also go about insulting those forum members?

"Only person with an agenda comes here..." Really Comrade Kim? How about being busy cycling or abroad with tours of duty in combat zones, perhaps posting here was not a priority. There was an agenda though: making sure I collected 3 yrs worth of data on three bikes, DONE, and after a key LBS owner passed away and store sold, no more concerns with Shimano account.

Perhaps you drank too much cool-aid, but this argument, your figurative and literal speed are too slow to grasp the mechanics at play. If you have an actual rebuttal, e.g. prove somehow that that 5.8mm Shimano DA chain DOES NOT touch and grind, do so. Until then, educate yourself, read and learn from many countless testimonies Here and countless places Dura Ace 9000 11 speed cassette- rubish product design - Weight Weenies

BTW Saga stands for "long and complicated story" which was an entire 2014 summer and several shops trying to tune up functional DA mounts, for me and others. 90% resolved in 2014, and 100% in 2017...

One should not engage above their class. Axes, grinds and more retarded comments really weaken a position and credibility. Welcome a technical rebuttal, question, but random insults are too funny.

View attachment 320106 View attachment 320107 View attachment 320108 View attachment 320109 View attachment 320110

tl;dr.

Nope, I'm not going to waste ANOTHER 10 minutes on a post that's longer than War and Peace, yet makes less sense than a drunken babbling hillbilly.

No Time Toulouse · Aug 13, 2017

You know, an earnest comment just brings another combative screed, and it's obvious that this blowhard only wants to hear the sound of his own voice, so I'm just going to add him to my 'ignore list'. Life is too short to have conversations with lunatics.

Belisarius · Aug 13, 2017

Yup, soundly beaten, not that you read War and Peace, plus funny coincidence for thinking of the book and Borodino earlier, you gotta learn to recognize defeat. How is that for a few seconds read?

trailflow · Aug 16, 2017

What made you make this post now and not 2014 ? Newer groupsets have since been released. These problems are old news.

Are there reports of R9100 cassettes breaking yet ? If so please post a link.

So you persevered to make it all work with some experimentation and even some modifiying of brand new parts. You're probably not the first. Another solution to the DA 5.8mm chain width problem (again not seen other people report this) would be to install a KMC X11 chain they are 5.6mm. KMC make great chains. They are equally as good as Campy,Shimano,SRAM if not better.

The solution to prevent the cassette from breaking into pieces is to accept the fault with the DA cassette and use a 6800 cassette or Sram 1170/1190 and take the weight penalty hit. This was concluded in the weight Weenies thread.

But it's not clear if this epic and longwinded post(s) of yours is about bashing Shimano, or is about congratulating yourself for mixing and matching some bike parts. Unless you think you Shimano owe you a public apology ?

No product is 100% perfect. Even japanese engineers make mistakes sometimes. People make mistakes. These things happen. Shimano made some engineering errors whether admittedly in the open or not. Then made the necessary changes for R9100 and R8000 which is surely a good thing. At least they have took the steps to make them right. What more do you want ?

Through this whole 'saga' you was covered by Shimano's warranty. If you wern't happy with any of the parts you should have claimed a replacement/or reimbursement. Sold the parts and moved on.

My DA9001 shifters work perfectly with my $2 Aliexpress cables btw.

My DA9000 cassette hasn't broke (yet) in 8,000 miles. I spend most of my riding climbing in the lowest gears. Im sure there are many others. So the cases of breakage are isolated not widespread.

The polymer coating on my DA9000 brake cables did get bunched up around the exposed sections next to the ferrules but it was an easy fix. I just picked it off with my fingernail. I would definitely buy those polymer cables again. They perform great.

RESULT 2014-2017

2km/hr higher average speeds below 30km/hr and 1-1.5km/hr 35+. With XG-1190, Campy chain, Gore cable, I could finally pull elite times and unparalleled reliability, hindered occasionally by the DA rear mech off slight hesitations at times. However, once seated the Campy chain delivers a superb feel. Two bikes, same setup. The effects were visible at high speed, esp 30Km/hr and higher, and lots of mileage, 1500+ per month.

ENTER R9100 RD

2017, last week, I took it to the next level with the new DA R9100 rear mech. Shimano used Mountain tech and simplified it. My new LBS, different city, noticed that it is engineered as Shimano only, Guide Wheel wide, Shimano DA only compatible. 15 min of filing it, fits perfectly a Campy R11.

RESULTS

1.5 km/hr gain sub 27km/hr and 0.5 to 1km/hr above 30 from prev gains. Faster accelerations. SRAM staccato type gear changes, Shimano lever speed and changes and Campy insane energy transfer and feel per gear. In many ways, better than EPS, Better than SRAM Red and Campy SR 11. All superlative to any DA setup.

You really think that combination of a XG-1190, Campy chain, Gore cable + R9100 rear mech gave you these speed gains ? Really ?

No Time Toulouse · Aug 16, 2017

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Belisarius · Aug 17, 2017

If I find a link will forward you. Why not 2014? Because in 2014 my 11 Speed Dura Ace spent the entire summer at the bike shop, except when winning that 120km race, and Oct is when we first the Campy chain. I had no idea what the issue was, nor many stores mounting them first time! Snow soon froze the season. Shimano had my bike rebuild 4-5 times- Every cable, shifters etc. Only when stores build 3d, 4[SUP]th[/SUP], 5th DA based bike and strong riders reported the exact same thing across the board, issue became more obvious.

Also, keep in mind that in 2014, flooded with complaints, Shimano kept promising a "new and better chain" or a new and "better cassette" every two weeks (got one of the first 2 rivets shipped in Canada). Now imagine you travel and bike in several cities, but YOU MUST RETURN TO THE ONE LBS so they can swap parts, then you leave town, and first ride, sometime leaving shop, you know it is not working.

Meanwhile, with that bike in store for overhaul, for months, I rode, successfully, 10 speed Dura Aces bikes, no issues. Slower shifting, but stable. No grinding dropping etc, and was averaging 2,000kms per month. Then returning to my point of purchase store and city to check on the bike, ride it locally, leave with it or leave it behind..

In August 2014 is when I spent 2 hours on a trainer, with lights and lasers and Barry (RIP) stopping it and telling me "it will never work." Once he saw the cassette bending, dropping and the chain grinding, catching (this even press admitted by Shimano), he understood it was a fundamental flaw. He and his co-owner had been feet away from Eddy Mercks doing his bike in Montreal (1970s), an expert riding Campy SR for 30 years always ridden with DA chains (sub 10 speeds Shimano always worked better than Campy). But 11 speed was new to him and everyone.

Shimano also imposed on the shop a draconian warranty set of steps, with mechanics sent to inspect and pretending that everything is good so strange- they did however, refused repeated offers to RIDE my or any other store DA bikes- and not my top end Columbus, but Scotts, Giants etc.

In Oct 2014, Barry mounted the Campy chain and the grinding was gone, his close Shimano friends all but a polite fit on the phone. Evidence was clear- 11 speed Campy cleared all cogs and engaged only when asked. It did not lean or falsely engaged under torque and tilt. They had a further fit when told I had just done 1,000kms of Gore cable shifting - no more polymer fraying after 1-2 weeks. The winter came.

2015 I still had an issue- cassette fear of 300-600W pushed on the plastic cogs. Feeling the chain drop from from 21-20 or 19-18 was terrifying when accelerating or climbing. That is when I could order and get the XG-1190 (catch, 11-28 sold out, so I rode 39-25 or 39-26 every darn climb!), and rebuild my other bikes with it and Campy. By then I was posting in several locations, and collaborating closely with two known editors in the cycling world. Then wrote to journalists with my data and asked them: "how many miles you rode that DA you praised, and what does your journalisitc instinct tel you about this?" turns out i was one of many reaching out to them- many had crashed." The journalists pressured Shimano (as one editor told me, "with a scathing update review"); I was one of many contacting them with the issues.

Meanwhile any small amateur or half licensed race, mobile pro trucks repeated the same- it will never work, and mix it unless tied by a sponsor obligation!

Shimano warranty has never worked- I spent 350$ per 1190 cassette and 50$ per Gore/Yokozuna cable set to fix it...They kept sending parts and my 11 speed bike was not ridden for months. I ditched their warranty and got my own parts, and voila the results...

2015 summer ended short as I deployed for a combat tour, not before logging 5,000kms on three hybrid bikes and storing them.

2016 I was back and re-learning to cycle after months abroad which felt like a decade. I pass through the city, Barry does a summer tuneup a Saturday June, hands me the bike and dies hours later of a heart attack clearing his horse's muck in the countryside. Stopping in other places, cities, store mechanics told me the issue being known- and no longer receiving Ultegra plastic cassettes. Shimano offered me an advance on the 2017 DA- which I refused when hearing it is also plastic centered.

What I argue matters less than what Shimano has done following feedback- ditched the cables, redid the chains (unsuccessfully), eliminated plastic on the Ultegra 6900, and redid the rear mech to address the middle floating issue (both cable and chain related, but a really good call redoing it), and redid the front crank spacing. Three separate LBS, different cities, told me that when they insisted on the quality being bogus (esp the plastic core), Shimano responded with account threats! If true, that is unforgivable IMO. Even Campy admitted to a SR flaw in 2015- Shimano kept denying while people crashed their cassettes or cranks.

So here is the thing- if you give me a 9100 cassette and ask me to ride at 35-45km/hr, I am not touching the high gears, right? At peloton speed the high gears and three plastic cogs are not as much an issue. The DA is nearly centered on the low gears, so less grinding... And pros play with the front crank so they only rode high gears under specific circumstances. Also, their training bikes are not quite the same as the Sponsored tour bike- but that is another story.

And another real problem- I change gears a lot every km, due to car traffic and red lights or sudden dangers. My system gets abused 10-45-10-30-45-65-15 km/hr in unimaginable ways that a pro team, with escort, clear roads, no T junction surprises, never worries about. Plus they change parts often...

Have you ever owned something so well built (shoe, car, tool?) that its intrinsic worth was never in question? When experts such as Barry, whom knew Colnago, met Eddy, tell me that Campy metallurgy is superior (yeay to Brembo!), makes sense. The current 11 speed DA/Ultegra cassettes have three parts to save weight: core spider; rivets and the cogs. More odds of failure if thinner less quality metals are used, and 10 speed tech was shaved down into narrower 11. Campy also uses rivets and spiders, but its metals are higher grade and why x2 x3 the price and they rarely fail in 10, or 20 years! SRAM bypassed the problem with its monoblock construction- hey if F1, WCC, GT race wheels are monoblock forged, maybe they are onto something.

Yokozuna cables are also absolutely superior- pre stretched, never deform, and a waving steel pattern that puts Shimano to shame. Some ask "Why not Campy?" Because Campy cables, also good, do not fit Shimano housing. Different diameter.

In the end, my system has the precision and power of a Campy, with a Shimano/SRAM speed. You never feel the chain, no flex, and the energy just goes to the wheel. Weight penalty is irrelevant- the system takes a lot of abuse and pushes fast. This system is far superior to any 10 speed DA I ever had- which never grinded but had a typical Shimano looseness into it. Campy is precise but finicky. DA chains lasted me 1,5000kms tops. Campys, about 3,700 but retain that superiority until the last 300kms and they start skipping.

It is 2017 and I still encounter people complaining of grind or unreliability with 11 speed, and some recent queries made it worth my finally posting. In the end, it only matters if really pushing it hard: at slow speed 11 speed is OK. At high speed is as described above, a proverbial headache but with solutions such as mine.

jordo.montesinos · Oct 4, 2017

Assuming you go to 100% drive train efficiency you would not get anywhere close from those speed gain numbers.
I appreciate all the efforts in the optimisation And trying to fix a weak DA cassette but the power difference for 2km/h is just not possible. If you run with a crankset power meter and compare both you will clearly see it. I ran enough tests with power meters to be quite sure about it.

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Marc · Oct 4, 2017

Sleeping dogs, mi amigo. Sleeping dogs.

Belisarius · Oct 4, 2017

Sure it is. Add the wide bad wobbly chain, the bad cassette and cable, and 2kms it is. Of course, if riding flat in a peloton, with minimal gear changes at 42km/hr, 53-12 or so, differences might be small since the action is limited. But add these factors and, you get 2 km/hr, and in some case, +50km/hr if unable to ride due to said gains. Remember having an event with a minor 500m ascent and yes, it slowed me more than 2km/hr as it was not shifting well, nor settling, or dropping. Any positive slopes and pass 17T it was simply not working, not settled, grindign and dropping. For months, multiple rebuilds. Nearly threw the bike after such a last ride before parting with Shimano. And, what is the Delta if the cassette breaks? -40km/hr? -70 if that was your ride? How much your powermeter measures as drop when the chain drops cogs under torque with that metallic BINGG! besides stopping to inspect cassette, crank, chain, figure out, anything broke...?

jordo.montesinos · Oct 4, 2017

What is the power consumption from 40 to 42km/h? Rough physics thats 42w (from 300 to 342W) you can put bad bearing, dry chain... you won't absorb 40 w!
A good chain is in the 7w, a dirty chain the double and a dry chain (crazy zero lube) in the 20s...
Sorry it's not possible to gain 2km/h just with a cassette and chain setup unless you have a very serious problem on initial setup. At best it shows mind influence on performance.

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Belisarius · Oct 5, 2017

Unsure what critical analytical method you are using, but your argument failed with the assumption “assuming you have 100% drive train efficiency.” At what point in the narrative, and those of other forums, were these 100% efficiency stories, or even close? Your numbers are also interesting but meaningless: the cable would start shifting badly 10-14 days (so nearing 1000 km marc), Shimano chains were weak when new (and still are- minor effect on <10 speed, major on 11 when catching) and the cassette NEVER HANDLED LOAD on the x3 DA plastic core cogs, and the x2 Ultegra ones. HENCE WHY SHIMANO MOVED TO MAKE MAJOR- though insufficient changes this year. Cable. Cassettes. RD. So how much wattage a non-shifting system burns on a climb? Got numbers for that? How about a chain drop, when you feel as if the crank broke, during a 300 Watts p+ climb- perhaps you should google accounts from people whom fell? What is the wattage when a chain drops in the wrong gear and can barely shift and center?

So your argument is based on flawed reasoning- and assumptions. Whereas mine are backed by Garmin/Strava recordings and empirical testing plus 15,000 Kms on two separate bikes. As for bad setup – no- not a single bike I had- nor anyone the shopS (as I interact with multiple shops) had a working ELITE LEVEL DA 9000 setup. And yes, well placed Shimano tech came by ‘building’ it, but we stopped the farce when noticing the bad design and spacing, and the evasive Shimano answers. Eventually, Shimano started having its reps to major sponsored teams to “ensure compliance.” Lately they started modifying all these parts (why the change if working) ? Whatever efficiency the system started with (and way less than 80%), within days it became fractional.

The DA 9000-9100 Saga and how we got it perfect

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