School me on Enve Hookless Bead (G23)

Finx · Dec 23, 2018

I've not yet made the leap to tubeless on any of my wheel/tire combos except my 650b Boyd Jocassee's. I went into those blind and clueless, and having run them for about a year, am happy with them (zero flats).

I'm building a new gravel bike this winter, and have the opportunity to get a set of Enve G23's with Chris King hubs for amazing price (LBS cost).

Other than the Jocassee's, all of my gravel wheels are alloy (HED Belgium Plus) with tubes and various tire combinations.

I very briefly owned a pair of Enve AR 4.5s last year, but ultimately bailed on the purchase after Enve told me they were tubeless specific, and the only tire they would recommend was the Schwalbe G-One . I wasn't (and still not)ready to run Tubeless on road only bike.

The rim wall on the G23 hookless design looks very similar to the AR 4.5. The description on the website says ... "The G Series are intended for tubeless applications and features a molded bead-lock to ensure that your tires will remain secure and sealed to the rim over even the roughest terrain."

I'm a bit wary of this wheelset, mainly because I don't want to have restrictions on tires. Enve recommends 33c-45c,but the tire will accept 28c-50c according to the published specs. (Internal width is 23mm)

Enve calls it tubeless specific, but says you can use tube "to get home".

I found this blog with a Enve tech bulletin regarding tire recommendations.

https://www.avt.bike/blog/tubeless-road-tire-compatibility-on-enve-road-gravel-xc-rims.html

"To guarantee a safe and enjoyable rider experience with the SES 4.5AR,M50, M525, G23, and G27 it is important that customers select and ride tires that we have tested and identified as reliable and safe to ride.
In both lab and field testing, some tires have failed to remain securely mounted on the SES 4.5AR, M50, M525, G23, and G27 hookless bead designed rims. At standard operating pressures of <80psi/5.5bar, some tires are susceptible to “blow-off” which is defined by the tire bead stretching off the rim.

Approved/Recommended Tires
Mavic Tubeless Tires >28mm
Schwalbe Pro One Tubeless Easy 28mm
Schwalbe G One Speed Tubeless Easy 30mm
Maxxis Padrone Tubeless Ready 28mm
Hutchinson Sector Tubeless 28 or 32mm
Hutchinson Intensive 2 Tubeless 28mm
Incompatible/Not Recommended Tires
Specialized S-Works Turbo 2Bliss Ready 28mm
Any Tube-Type/Non-Tubeless Tires
We acknowledge that this list of tires is not comprehensive and that many new tubeless compatible tires are being introduced to the market on a regular basis. We will continue to add tires to this list as we test and qualify them."

I tried calling Enve yesterday to ask some questions, they they are all out of the office until after New Years.

I'll probably run these tubeless, but with all of the competing tubeless specifications, I'm confused about my tire options,. According to the tech bulletin, the only tire they tested was the Mavic (sorry not interested). I was looking around at some tires from Donnely, WTB, Compass, etc.. The Donnelly X'plor Strada USH 700x40 looks ideal for my primary intended use., They come in both tubeless and non-Tubeless versions. Don't know if either will work (are compatible ) with the G23.

Are these wheels only compatible with the UST tubeless standard as the tech bulletin suggests, or would a more generic TCS compatible tire be ok? What are the risks of running non-standard tires?

I'd also like to confirm if I would have the option to run a non-tubeless clincher tire, and what the risk would be .

These are *really* nice wheels. I'd love to have a set, especially considering the deal the shop is offering me. But I would hate them if I can only run Mavic (or UST) tires tubeless.

Srode · Dec 23, 2018

this is the first time I've seen this message from Enve, and would talk to them to get more information for sure. I can say that G23s are used with plenty of tires not on that list and there are plenty of gravel and road tires not on that list. I'm running Compass 35mm tires (no tread) on a set of G23s, they are tubeless but I have them set up with tubes. Panaracer makes some as well I believe. The Compass tires roll really well on the street, the set I have are supposed to be very close to Conti GP4000S tires for rolling resistance, and my power / speed data supports that.

changingleaf · Dec 24, 2018

TCS is the same as UST. Any tubeless ready tire will work and tube-type tires will work with tubes. The somewhat ambiguous language that Enve uses is because they haven't tested every tire, but the main thing is to stay well under max pressure on tube-type tires and a little under on tubeless-ready tires to be safe. No rim manufacturer has tested every tire.

Finx · Dec 24, 2018

For tubeless tires, Enve lists the max pressure for the G23 at 42-44psi for ~38-42mm tires (for my body weight) regardless of what the tire manufacturer says.

They don't recommend tubes and tubed tires and thus don't publish recommended pressures for them, so you are on your own for those I guess.

Finx · Dec 24, 2018

changingleaf said:
TCS is the same as UST. Any tubeless ready tire will work and tube-type tires will work with tubes. The somewhat ambiguous language that Enve uses is because they haven't tested every tire, but the main thing is to stay well under max pressure on tube-type tires and a little under on tubeless-ready tires to be safe. No rim manufacturer has tested every tire.

UST has specific standards. TCS is more general. A Tubeless Compatible or Tubeless Ready tire can meet TCS standards but not be certified UST.

UST is Mavics standard
WTB seems to be primary driver behind TCS.

I'm very new to Tubeless, and am just trying to figure this stuff out.

Srode · Dec 25, 2018

I can tell you the Compass tires are a pretty tight fit to get them to seat on these wheels, and you pretty much need tire levers to get them on the rim too.

Haven't tried WTB Nano TCS Light yet which is my go to gravel tire - I will this Spring.

Finx · Dec 25, 2018

When I had the AR 4.5s I couldn't get any tires on them without a significant amount of lever force. So much that I broke a fiber reinforced Feedback tire lever. This is not ideal, especially on a carbon fiber rim.

Most of my riding these days is in the Cascade Foothills, in cold wet weather and mostly out of cell phone range.

I decided I didn't want to struggle with a tire I can't seat by hand under those circumstances

I think for now, I'll stick with a nice set of HED Belgium Plus/Chris King wheels for light gravel duty, and ride the 650b Jocassee's on the rougher stuff.

Finx · Dec 25, 2018

Srode said:
Haven't tried WTB Nano TCS Light yet which is my go to gravel tire - I will this Spring.

I think I'm going to try the Donnelly Cycling Strada USH Tubeless Compatible 700*40

https://www.donnellycycling.com/collections/adventure/products/strada-ush-tubeless

Marc · Dec 25, 2018

Finx said:
I think I'm going to try the Donnelly Cycling Strada USH Tubeless Compatible 700*40

https://www.donnellycycling.com/collections/adventure/products/strada-ush-tubeless

Another similar tire to consider is the Specialized Sawtooth...you can get them in 700x42 for $40USD brick/mortar retail locally-they also have great wear characteristics when used for paved roads....caveat with all the pseudo-motorcycle side-tread tires like this, they don't corner well in softpack. The catch with the Spec Sawtooth is that the durability/wear costs a bunch of weight. The Donnellys look nice but for $70/tire (yikes), that puts them in the same tier as Terrene Honalis.

I went back to Vittoria Terrene Dry tires this winter for non-snow/ice...which have the smoother center but knobbier trapezoid corners for better cornering. More supple and far lighter than the Sawtooths, but not as durable...a bit more expensive but not Donelly/Terrene price tier.

Cni2i · Dec 28, 2018

I've been using the ENVE 4.5 AR for the past 8 months with WTB NANO 700x40 tubeless...thus far, not issues at all. I've considered the G23 also for its light weight, but the 4.5 AR have worked great thus far, so I'm on the fence.

aclinjury · Dec 28, 2018

this is one of the isuse of road tubeless, there is no universal standard. In MTB, there is also no universal standard, although the UST standard is pretty popular. But in MTB world, there isn't much of a need of a universal standard because
1. almost all mtbers will not use an inner tube
2. mtb operates at a much lower psi so the chance of the tire blowing off is very slim
So as a result, "loose" standards are close enough for them to interoperate with each other.

But for the roadie world or even gravel world, psi is much higher, and there is still a need to fit in an inner tube unless you have a sag car tailing you. I know from personal experience that for my Zipp 30 wheels (designed specifically for tubeless application), some non-tubeless tires do in fact blow off easier than others when the psi is approaching 100 psi, and 100 is not even the max pressure of these rims (rated at 125 psi) nor the max pressure of these tires I've tested. So yeah, a unifying "tubeless standard" doesn't exist for roadie/gravel application, and so road/gravel tubeless is still a dark science and tribal knowledge thing, flip a coin. This is one reason why road tubeless will probably never going to be a serious thing; maybe gravel but we'll see.

4slomo · Jan 1, 2019

ENVE is owned by Mavic now, there may be some internal pressure to not list competitor tires now?

Srode · Aug 1, 2019

Old thread but on topic - just got off the phone with Enve about tires I can put on G23 rims. I want to use the wheels while I sort out some other road wheels to use on a bike I'm building. So tubeless only (as I expected) was the first comment I heard. What surprised me was they tested and found GP5000 TL not ok on their hookless bead wheels when I asked about using them. Schwalbe Pro One does work fine as noted above so I ordered a set of those to throw on and run tubeless. The wrestling match will start this weekend! I'm pretty sure I'll win, but not sure how long it will take

changingleaf · Aug 2, 2019

TCS uses the UST standard for the bead, but not the air tight casing. WTB likes to have the bead design backed up by Mavic's design to ensure safety. You can ask WTB.

velodog · Aug 2, 2019

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2019/04/10/safety-advice-non-standard-rims-and-rene-herse-tires/

Finx · Aug 2, 2019

4slomo said:
ENVE is owned by Mavic now, there may be some internal pressure to not list competitor tires now?

This has never been true.

Amer Sports, which is a Sporting Goods conglomerate, owned both Enve and Mavic for a short period of time (along with many other non-cycling related Sporting Goods brands).

They have since "divested" themselves of the Mavic brand.

https://www.amersports.com/brands/

Apparently, Amer wants out of the Cycling business altogether, but still owns Enve Composites.

https://www.bike-eu.com/home/nieuws...home/nieuws/2019/03/amer-sports-sells-mavic-to-u-s-private-equity-firm-10135527

Finx · Aug 2, 2019

velodog said:
https://janheine.wordpress.com/2019/04/10/safety-advice-non-standard-rims-and-rene-herse-tires/

This highlights my major issue with all hookless rim designs.

They do no comply with ETRTO safety standards.

This is especially important with high pressure road tires on bikes designed to handle high speeds.

Presumably every major tire manufacturer designs and builds their tires to comply with these standards.

Enve and others are putting wheels on the market that are unsafe with some/many/most tires.

Personally, I'm not buying a wheel that expensive that isn't compatible with most common and popular tires.

I know Enve is petitioning ETRTO to update the standard to include it's hookless design. Until there is some kind of clear compatibility matrix, or some way to identify which tires work (and are SAFE), I'll stick to other brands.

Srode · Aug 2, 2019

It's interesting that some tires work well on the Enve hookless rims and some don't. Probably due to tollerences and / or stretching of the bead. Personally for road only use rims I agree, I want a hook. Enve makes them, it's just the AR wheels that are hookless, Their dedicated road wheels have a hook.

Marc · Aug 2, 2019

Finx said:
This highlights my major issue with all hookless rim designs.

They do no comply with ETRTO safety standards.

This is especially important with high pressure road tires on bikes designed to handle high speeds.

Presumably every major tire manufacturer designs and builds their tires to comply with these standards.

Enve and others are putting wheels on the market that are unsafe with some/many/most tires.

Personally, I'm not buying a wheel that expensive that isn't compatible with most common and popular tires.

I know Enve is petitioning ETRTO to update the standard to include it's hookless design. Until there is some kind of clear compatibility matrix, or some way to identify which tires work (and are SAFE), I'll stick to other brands.

Given how behind the times the ETRTO is about bicycles tires and rims...I honestly had to check to see if they're even still around.

School me on Enve Hookless Bead (G23)

Finx

Srode

changingleaf

Finx

Finx

Srode

Finx

Finx

Marc

Cni2i

aclinjury

4slomo

Srode

changingleaf

velodog

Finx

Finx

Srode

Marc

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